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Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Sep 16th, 2010 @ 9:38am

So I said I was done with 616 Spider-Man after the events of One More Day/Brand New Day. However, my deep love for old school ASM and my need for closure compelled me to read One Moment in Time.

Good God, what a mistake.

Spoiler: show
Basically, all that happened was Mephisto re-wrote history so Peter and Mary Jane never got married but stayed together, and Dr. Strange casts a spell to have everyone forget Peter is Spider-Man after the events of Civil War. At the last second, Peter insists that Mary Jane remember too because he loves her too much, but Mary Jane wishes that Peter let her forget. It's a whole I-love-you-but-I-can't-be-with-you thing.


I don't know how this scenario helps Peter. After years of struggling in love, he found his perfect girl in Gwen Stacy. She died, and stayed dead. Mary Jane helped him move on and gave him the ability to love again. That gave so much resonance and weight to Peter's character. Now, he has to move on? Bullshit. There's too much history and good storytelling there, and they just threw it all out the window. It was such a big deal when he got married, they had a real-life ceremony in Shea Stadium with Stan Lee presiding!

What do you guys think?
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby Kenshiro28 » Sep 16th, 2010 @ 1:20pm

I'm just wondering what the point of making that story was. No one liked One More Day and alot of folks actually like some of the stories that've started up since then but even then, no one wants to revisit ANYTHING that might have something to do with One More Day unless it undoes it all.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Sep 16th, 2010 @ 3:42pm

Kenshiro28 wrote:I'm just wondering what the point of making that story was. No one liked One More Day and alot of folks actually like some of the stories that've started up since then but even then, no one wants to revisit ANYTHING that might have something to do with One More Day unless it undoes it all.


Quesada's whole deal was that Spider-Man wasn't interesting to write anymore because he wasn't a swinging (hyuck!) bachelor anymore with tons of problems to deal with. They figured that dialing him back to zero would solve this problem. It didn't

I know that retcons and re-writes are common in comics, but messing with Spider-Man this much, especially after JMS's awesome run on the book, just killed me and I had to bail.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby Kenshiro28 » Sep 16th, 2010 @ 8:12pm

I was referring more to making One Moment in Time. I myself kinda stopped caring about Spider-Man first because of how stupid OMD was and then the comic was announced to go weekly with a price increase, and now there's a butt-load of trades and I don't care anymore cuz it's cheaper to read something like The Goon or Iron Fist.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby ReturnOfTheOgre » Sep 17th, 2010 @ 8:29am

Wait, you preferred The Other to One More Day?

OMD had to be revisited purely due to the fact that Joe Q and whoever was on the Spider-Man crew at the time was getting harassed about it constantly. You'd see it in con coverage or whenever Steve Wacker was doing a mailbag thing for some website. I remember it especially picked up after the arc where the Human Torch re-learned who Spidey really was.

Really the result of OMIT is just that there was one more story between Civil War and Brand New Day where everyone's memory was erased (which reminds me simultaneously of the Flash story where the Spectre wipes everyone's memory and the Iron Man story after Heroes Return where he uses AIM technology to...wipe everyone's memory. Secret identities, man). Personally I didn't really care how the beef was made, so long as I got my steak.

Personally I like a non-married Spider-Man, but I think we should avoid discussing that or this thread will be 11 pages before we wake up tomorrow.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Sep 17th, 2010 @ 10:18am

Not really. This is the least used and least posted forum out of the five. I'd love some more discussion about 616 Peter Parker. :D
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby ReturnOfTheOgre » Sep 17th, 2010 @ 7:52pm

Well I can't carry all the slack myself. You guys need to start reading more comics. It's way cheaper than video games anyway.

You know what's rare? Someone writing Spider-Man and actually making him funny. Thank god for Dan Slott. He actually writes Spidey so I can chuckle. Even that one-shot the SNL guys did wasn't that funny.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Sep 17th, 2010 @ 8:10pm

Tru dat.

Well, I love me some DC, even more than Marvel. What books are you currently reading?
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby dabeast0976 » Sep 20th, 2010 @ 8:27am

jinpei05 wrote:Tru dat.

Well, I love me some DC, even more than Marvel. What books are you currently reading?


I don't know about him, but i am a religious reader of the Justice Society of America. Always a good read.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby ReturnOfTheOgre » Sep 20th, 2010 @ 11:16am

jinpei05 wrote:Tru dat.

Well, I love me some DC, even more than Marvel. What books are you currently reading?


I checked out Batman: Year One on DC Comics' iPod Touch app, which I honestly have to say I would use a lot more if they had more day and date releases; no ads and way fewer stacks of out-of-order floppies around. Meanwhile I think I've finally absorbed everything that's happened in regards to Green Lantern since Rebirth, and I'm interested in seeing where Matt Fraction takes Iron Man.

Phew.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby Raine » Sep 24th, 2010 @ 6:53am

My personal Spider-Man continuity ends with ASM #400, excluding the arrest at the end. Aunt May stays dead, the clone runs away to the west coast, MJ has her baby and Pete retires from being Spider-Man and lives happily ever after. That's it, no more Spidey. Ultimate Spider-Man doesn't count because I fucking hate high school stories, though I am considering getting some trades or whatever and checking out Spider-Girl. Other than that I'm done.

Truth be told, the whole Marvel Universe is a fucking mess. It's about time to find a new EIC and launch a Crisis on Infinite Marvel Earths. Until something like that happens I'm only going to buy back issues and trades of the older stuff.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Sep 24th, 2010 @ 9:41am

Raine wrote:My personal Spider-Man continuity ends with ASM #400, excluding the arrest at the end. Aunt May stays dead, the clone runs away to the west coast, MJ has her baby and Pete retires from being Spider-Man and lives happily ever after. That's it, no more Spidey. Ultimate Spider-Man doesn't count because I fucking hate high school stories, though I am considering getting some trades or whatever and checking out Spider-Girl. Other than that I'm done.

Truth be told, the whole Marvel Universe is a fucking mess. It's about time to find a new EIC and launch a Crisis on Infinite Marvel Earths. Until something like that happens I'm only going to buy back issues and trades of the older stuff.


I could kinda guess your feelings about Marvel and Spider-Man, based on your avatar. I love superdickery.com! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby ReturnOfTheOgre » Sep 25th, 2010 @ 12:20pm

Raine wrote:
Truth be told, the whole Marvel Universe is a fucking mess. It's about time to find a new EIC and launch a Crisis on Infinite Marvel Earths. Until something like that happens I'm only going to buy back issues and trades of the older stuff.


Really, that happened when Bendis came onto Avengers. That was sort of the start of it, then you had House of M, Civil War, Secret Invasion, and Brand New Day, etc. Basically through the last few years of minor retcons and new interpersonal relationships between the characters, they really only need to acknowledge the major hallmarks of the past, like the Dark Phoenix Saga, not that time Tony Stark and Nick Fury had a beer.

I mean, Jonathan Hickman's SHIELD series is a way better story than that issue from Tales to Astonish where Nick Fury was walking around going "Flying cars? Robots who look like people? Yes, I will join SHIELD and fight Hydra!"
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby Jaebird » Sep 30th, 2010 @ 9:44pm

The following rambling is due to the lack of food in the belly. You have been warned:

The problem is no one at Marvel currently knows how to write stories about married superheroes, or are just too stupid to not make it about the damn marriage. I can hand pick a dozen of the BND stories and rewrite them to have the support a wife. Hell, those two issues centering on the Rhino would have been perfect. Don't ask me how exactly; I just feel it should.

And now that I'm thinking about it, I believe the real reason Spider-Girl was canceled completely is because Quesada wants to eliminate any trace of a married Spider-Man who managed to take responsibility and balance his family life and superhero life.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I see Spidey as my best friend. And I would want my best friend to be happy, with a decent job and a good relationship with his significant other. Quesada is no friend to any wallcrawler. He hates happiness, and shits despair.

At the end of the day, I wish a writer would come along and tell a story in canon about how Spidey died from a sexually transmitted disease. Maybe Grant Morrison can write it.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby Raine » Oct 1st, 2010 @ 8:26am

Jaebird wrote:The problem is no one at Marvel currently knows how to write stories about married superheroes, or are just too stupid to not make it about the damn marriage.


That was a problem back in the day as well. It's so friggin goofy, the build up to Peter asking MJ to marry him was just fucking perfect. It was a nice slow build with MJ returning, the tension between her and Black Cat, learning about her past and then eventually Pete figuring out that she really is the one for him.

Then he proposes.

They get married like, 2 issues later.

They do some good stuff with adjusting to the marriage in Kraven's Last Hunt. . . but that's about it. It settles into the same ole "Oh noes, Peter is risking his life, I'm worried about him!" for years. Sure, there's a few great stories here and there, but a lot of writers just didn't know what to do. I don't think that's a failure of the concept of adult Spidey, it's a failure of the writers.

That was still no reason to do a stupid ass retcon. The bullshit that has happened under Joe Quesada is going to fuck the Marvel comics universe for years to come.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby MonkeyFightingSnakes » Oct 5th, 2010 @ 7:43am

Wow. I can't go anywhere where a Spidey discussion is being held without people being angry at OMD. Look, it's all about how the story is being told and not about where the character has been or where you want him to be. Not to say you should completely disregard his past, but lets face it, the Spidey books were in a rut. If Pete had everything he wanted then that would be a colossal bore of a read.

The thing that made Spider-Man great in the first place was that he was a relatable superhero in a market where all other heroes before him were written to have the perfect life. Back when Peter was either a Teacher or a Scientist or Tony Stark's number two (depending on which Spidey book you read that week) no one took his books seriously. People would buy it simply because it was Spider-Man, but you wouldn't hear much how good the book was. The only pre-OMD Spidey book that was universally loved was the Sensational Annual in 2007 (the issue about Peter and MJ's marriage). Other than that, it was boring to read a book about a man who had most everything he wanted. And I thought people didn't like the Iron-Spider suit.

Since OMD, Marvel has made ASM a consistently good book. It took a while to get good, but it's been good. But yeah, OMIT was just a bad read and so far this current arc is bad as well. But that's the good thing about a book that's out almost every week. If a story arc is bad, you'll have a new one in a month. If it's good, you'll have the next issue in a week. You don't have to read everything.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby Jaebird » Oct 5th, 2010 @ 8:28am

MonkeyFightingSnakes wrote:Wow. I can't go anywhere where a Spidey discussion is being held without people being angry at OMD. Look, it's all about how the story is being told and not about where the character has been or where you want him to be. Not to say you should completely disregard his past, but lets face it, the Spidey books were in a rut. If Pete had everything he wanted then that would be a colossal bore of a read.

The thing that made Spider-Man great in the first place was that he was a relatable superhero in a market where all other heroes before him were written to have the perfect life. Back when Peter was either a Teacher or a Scientist or Tony Stark's number two (depending on which Spidey book you read that week) no one took his books seriously. People would buy it simply because it was Spider-Man, but you wouldn't hear much how good the book was. The only pre-OMD Spidey book that was universally loved was the Sensational Annual in 2007 (the issue about Peter and MJ's marriage). Other than that, it was boring to read a book about a man who had most everything he wanted. And I thought people didn't like the Iron-Spider suit.

Since OMD, Marvel has made ASM a consistently good book. It took a while to get good, but it's been good. But yeah, OMIT was just a bad read and so far this current arc is bad as well. But that's the good thing about a book that's out almost every week. If a story arc is bad, you'll have a new one in a month. If it's good, you'll have the next issue in a week. You don't have to read everything.

Since I'm feeling a little more coherent today (thanks to some doughnuts), I would say I agree with you.

I'm the kind of reader who isn't always out-right angry at whatever story is bad. I take it in stride and hope for the best. OMIT is just that: a moment in time. And so is OMD. We can all choose to look over them and not fret over it, or we can all act like the angry little trolls that most people would look down upon.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Oct 5th, 2010 @ 4:21pm

MonkeyFightingSnakes wrote:Wow. I can't go anywhere where a Spidey discussion is being held without people being angry at OMD. Look, it's all about how the story is being told and not about where the character has been or where you want him to be. Not to say you should completely disregard his past, but lets face it, the Spidey books were in a rut. If Pete had everything he wanted then that would be a colossal bore of a read.

The thing that made Spider-Man great in the first place was that he was a relatable superhero in a market where all other heroes before him were written to have the perfect life. Back when Peter was either a Teacher or a Scientist or Tony Stark's number two (depending on which Spidey book you read that week) no one took his books seriously. People would buy it simply because it was Spider-Man, but you wouldn't hear much how good the book was. The only pre-OMD Spidey book that was universally loved was the Sensational Annual in 2007 (the issue about Peter and MJ's marriage). Other than that, it was boring to read a book about a man who had most everything he wanted. And I thought people didn't like the Iron-Spider suit.

Since OMD, Marvel has made ASM a consistently good book. It took a while to get good, but it's been good. But yeah, OMIT was just a bad read and so far this current arc is bad as well. But that's the good thing about a book that's out almost every week. If a story arc is bad, you'll have a new one in a month. If it's good, you'll have the next issue in a week. You don't have to read everything.


While you definitely make some good points, I have to disagree at a fundamental level.

You're right that the strength of Spider-Man's character is Peter Parker and the constant shitstorm that is his life. However, it's about forward motion, not dialing the character back to zero just because a particularly dumb-ass EIC of Marvel didn't like the idea of him being married and believed that's why his comics have sucked.

Look at JMS/JRJR's run on Amazing. Purely awesome. In my opinion, it's been some of the best Spider-Man material since Lee and Ditko or Conway and Kane. But JMS didn't say, "Hey! We need to annul Spider-Man's marriage, because that's when he was the most popular." He took what he was given and made it work. Peter was separated from Mary Jane, Aunt May discovered his secret, and he became a science teacher at his old high school. Through the course of time, the stories just got stronger and stronger, culminating in issue #500, when Peter and Mary Jane reconciled and dedicated themselves to making it work.

You're also right that some very solid writing came out of Brand New Day. However, the fact that they had to cheat to get Peter out of the mess of Civil War and One More Day just screams of cheap ploys and tactics.

And yes, I realize that comics, like soap operas, are a medium where the impossible happens all too often and convenient plot twists are a dime a dozen. I just wish that more writers and editors would work with the cards that they were dealt instead of reaching for a brand new deck.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby Raine » Oct 5th, 2010 @ 5:39pm

MonkeyFightingSnakes wrote: Look, it's all about how the story is being told and not about where the character has been or where you want him to be.


Serialized fiction is completely about where the character has been and where you want him to go. When you do a bunch of stupid ass retcons you turn your book into something like The Simpsons, or I dunno, Spongebob. I suppose that's fine, but that's not what Marvel was about up until fairly recently.


jinpei05 wrote:I just wish that more writers and editors would work with the cards that they were dealt instead of reaching for a brand new deck.


It's because so many writers are stupid ass fanboys. A real professional would work with what he's given and show respect to the writers that came before him. Most comics writers aren't like that. . . they're just grown up fanboys, prejudiced by their decades of fandom and how they always viewed the character when they were wee little lads reading books off a spinner rack at a local gas station. I mean, let's be honest. . . most mainstream super hero books are nothing but glorified fan fiction, and have been for a while.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby Rockos_Modern_Life » Nov 7th, 2010 @ 12:38am

how is it ASM can have 3 issues a month?
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Nov 8th, 2010 @ 1:01pm

They canceled the other Spider-Man books and moved the creative teams all to AMS.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby kenzo » Nov 8th, 2010 @ 1:53pm

Dude, I thought you were done with Marvel.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Nov 8th, 2010 @ 1:57pm

kenzo wrote:Dude, I thought you were done with Marvel.


I am done with 616 Marvel. And the creative teams moved to AMS back when I was still reading 616 Marvel.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby kenzo » Nov 8th, 2010 @ 2:03pm

That's not what you told me before:
jinpei05 wrote:As for the Iron Man anime, I'm pretty much off Marvel Entertainment.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Nov 8th, 2010 @ 2:55pm

kenzo wrote:That's not what you told me before:
jinpei05 wrote:As for the Iron Man anime, I'm pretty much off Marvel Entertainment.


The Marvel DVDs have been pretty horrid. Hence, that statement.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby kenzo » Nov 8th, 2010 @ 3:08pm

jinpei05 wrote:
kenzo wrote:That's not what you told me before:
jinpei05 wrote:As for the Iron Man anime, I'm pretty much off Marvel Entertainment.
The Marvel DVDs have been pretty horrid. Hence, that statement.
But this isn't just any Marvel DVD. This is Iron Man, made by Madhouse, and given free reign to do whatever they want.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Nov 8th, 2010 @ 3:11pm

kenzo wrote:
jinpei05 wrote:
kenzo wrote:That's not what you told me before:
jinpei05 wrote:As for the Iron Man anime, I'm pretty much off Marvel Entertainment.
The Marvel DVDs have been pretty horrid. Hence, that statement.
But this isn't just any Marvel DVD. This is Iron Man, made by Madhouse, and given free reign to do whatever they want.

I'll give it a shot. Back to the topic, I am off 616 Marvel for good, but I am still reading Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man, because Brian Michael Bendis is the only good writer that still writes for them.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby Raine » Nov 11th, 2010 @ 7:45am

jinpei05 wrote:I'll give it a shot. Back to the topic, I am off 616 Marvel for good, but I am still reading Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man, because Brian Michael Bendis is the only good writer that still writes for them.


I don't do Ultimate because keeping Peter as a perpetual high school student bores me, but I did look up the series on Wikipedia just now. I see Mark Bagley left a few years ago and went DC exclusive. He did a project called "Trinity" with Kurt Busiek, and while I don't care for most DC characters I do like Busiek and Bagley. Was it any good?
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby jinpei05 » Nov 11th, 2010 @ 9:13am

Raine wrote:
jinpei05 wrote:I'll give it a shot. Back to the topic, I am off 616 Marvel for good, but I am still reading Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man, because Brian Michael Bendis is the only good writer that still writes for them.


I don't do Ultimate because keeping Peter as a perpetual high school student bores me, but I did look up the series on Wikipedia just now. I see Mark Bagley left a few years ago and went DC exclusive. He did a project called "Trinity" with Kurt Busiek, and while I don't care for most DC characters I do like Busiek and Bagley. Was it any good?


No. No, it wasn't.
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Re: Fuck Spider-Man and One Moment in Time

Postby Jaebird » Nov 11th, 2010 @ 9:56am

jinpei05 wrote:
Raine wrote:
jinpei05 wrote:I'll give it a shot. Back to the topic, I am off 616 Marvel for good, but I am still reading Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man, because Brian Michael Bendis is the only good writer that still writes for them.


I don't do Ultimate because keeping Peter as a perpetual high school student bores me, but I did look up the series on Wikipedia just now. I see Mark Bagley left a few years ago and went DC exclusive. He did a project called "Trinity" with Kurt Busiek, and while I don't care for most DC characters I do like Busiek and Bagley. Was it any good?


No. No, it wasn't.

On the subject of "Trinity", I just want to add that Matt Wagner's Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman: Trinity should be worth mentioning, and is better than Busiek's Trinity (in my opinion).

Back on topic of...uh...Ultimate Spider-Man, I will say that, after 150 issues (more or less) of tweenage Parker, I feel it is time to move on. There's only so much high school drama you can get for so long, until it gets stale and moldy. How about it, Bendis? Let's make Peter a senior in high school, instead of...erm...I completely forgot where he stands in school, now >_>
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