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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby slinkdickens » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 1:34am

achickenchaser wrote:The ending was so predictable I could have walked out of the movie five minutes early and known exactly what was gonna happen.

This is the weakest of the three films, but still good.


Predictable doesn't always equal bad. A lot of times, predictable is rewarding. I felt the ending was predictable in a good way in this movie. Although 2 things were heavy handed and un-Chris Nolan like to the point I think it was forced upon him by some studio execs. Those being:
Spoiler: show
Alfred looking up, he has a knowing smile as he sees someone. That scene would've been perfect if it ended there, but they had to beat you over the head with the fact that Bruce is alive by showing Bruce.

Secondly, when dude says his "real" name is "Robin". I bet the Nolan bros. wanted to use one of the Robin's names (Tim Drake is my guess given the similarity to John Blake), but someone said no one would get it so they went with "Robin".
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Guillermo_DudeL » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 1:38am

Yup, Bane is a guy that likes to show off and toy with people. He said he preferred using the timer on the bomb because it gives the people false hope. It's also why he crippled Batman and let him suffer than just kill him when he had the chance.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Guillermo_DudeL » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 1:52am

Yeah, I hate when people use predictable as a negative point. Having read/seen lots of different books/movies/shows and just being really interested in the art of storytelling few stories really "surprise" me anymore. What matters is the execution. I predicted how the story plays out in DKR months ago and I was mostly right but it was still a good movie to me.

Spoiler: show
I agree it would have been good enough just seeing Alfred smile and not actual see Bruce with Selena. But after being annoyed by the ambiguous ending of Inception I was willing to let him do something so blunt. Also having Blake's name being Robin was probably the better choice in the end. If his name was one of the actual Robins' names it would probably go over the general audience's heads and nerds would complain it was too on the nose or that his name should have just been Terry McGuinness or whatever in the first place.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby slinkdickens » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 1:56am

kenzo wrote:Yep. And while a lot of people thought it was weird and out of place that his voice felt disembodied, I think that was a very intentional stylistic choice. It's supposed to be off-putting, it's supposed to be loud and distracting. Bane is a man that commands men, demands loyalty, and inspires devotion - his voice should be representative of that, and I think DKR did a great job of portraying that.

slinkdickens wrote:
Spoiler: show
Can anyone tell me why in the hell did Bane not just blow up the bomb from the get go? What's with waiting for 5 months? Maybe there was a single line somewhere that I missed, but it definitely isn't explained well in the movie at all.
The whole purpose of the League of Shadows isn't just to destroy Gotham, but to use the destruction of the corrupt city to inspire the world and bring it "back to harmony". If you just set a bomb off with nobody knowing what happened, then you don't really send a message, you just send senseless carnage. It's the same theatrics and smoke screens the League of Shadows enjoys employing, but on a massive scale - with the whole world watching. Ra's al Ghul wanted the world to watch Gotham tear itself apart from fear - Bane wants the same thing. Only, he just employed a different, far more slow and dramatic method.


Nice explanation, too bad it isn't in the movie. The closest to that is a line where Bane says that there can only be true despair when there is hope, but he refers that to the people of Gotham (and to the people in the pit). He puts on a show to make it seem like the people are taking back the city, but when it blows up everyone is going to know it was him.

The only way this makes sense is by making up reasons on my own. A better movie wouldn't need that.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kenzo » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 8:51am

slinkdickens wrote:Nice explanation, too bad it isn't in the movie. The closest to that is a line where Bane says that there can only be true despair when there is hope, but he refers that to the people of Gotham (and to the people in the pit). He puts on a show to make it seem like the people are taking back the city, but when it blows up everyone is going to know it was him.

The only way this makes sense is by making up reasons on my own. A better movie wouldn't need that.
I get what you're trying to say Slinky, and that's true of overly simple movies that gloss over important details we don't have the luxury of assuming because we don't know the characters or world involved. But this is Batman with two prequels worth of knowledge to base logical assumptions on. It's called:

Image

But Kenzo, it makes no sense! How does Batman miraculously sneak back into Gotham without anyone knowing!? WE DON'T SEE THIS IN THE MOVIE, HOW IS IT POSSIBLE DARK KNIGHT RISING SUCKSABETTERMOVIEWOULDN'TNEEDTHATKINDOFASSUMPTIONMAKING
Except there's no assumptions being made here. Batman is fucking Batman. We've seen him being trained as a fucking ninja. He knows how to sneak into places and conceal his presence/identity.

So, why would you need Bane to explicitly tell you the things I assumed in my last post? He's part of the League of Shadows. We already know what the League of Shadows is and what they do because we've seen Batman Begins. Bane continually says he's trying to finish Ra's al Ghul's work. We already know Ra's al Ghul's intentions and methodology because it's outlined in Batman Begins. On the contrary, this is a good film precisely because it doesn't waste our time explaining things we already know. Now, if you're a bandwagon-fan, haven't seen Batman Begins, and are only jumping into this movie now because of the hype, then I would understand the confusion. But I'm going to guess that's not the case with everyone here.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby slinkdickens » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 10:46am

kenzo wrote:So, why would you need Bane to explicitly tell you the things I assumed in my last post? He's part of the League of Shadows. We already know what the League of Shadows is and what they do because we've seen Batman Begins. Bane continually says he's trying to finish Ra's al Ghul's work. We already know Ra's al Ghul's intentions and methodology because it's outlined in Batman Begins. On the contrary, this is a good film precisely because it doesn't waste our time explaining things we already know. Now, if you're a bandwagon-fan, haven't seen Batman Begins, and are only jumping into this movie now because of the hype, then I would understand the confusion. But I'm going to guess that's not the case with everyone here.


I saw all three movies in one shot, and I still didn't buy Bane's reasons for torturing Gotham before destroying it. There's a suggestion that he's a misguided ex-member of the League of Shadows, so him putting Gotham under seige in a spectacular fashion makes sense. But the bomb doesn't. It actually makes Bane come off as rather dense as though he completely misunderstands what the League of Shadows tries to do. Based on Batman Begins, they are in THE SHADOWS and never seem like outright terrorists, destroying cities when necessary, but always using some method that seems like misfortune (e.g. plague rats or a massive fire).

So, when Bane reveals his plan, I'm in the theater thinking, 'ok, Bane is smart enough to pull this off, but doesn't have a purpose'. It's asking me to assume a lot, but I can buy it at that point because he's setup as someone who might be trying to step into shoes he can't fill (Ra's al Ghul). But then,
Spoiler: show
it's revealed that Talia is behind it all
and that's when the logic broke and the whole ticking time bomb is nothing but a contrivance to cheaply garner suspense.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby GiantAsianMan » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 11:02am

kenzo wrote:Yep. And while a lot of people thought it was weird and out of place that his voice felt disembodied, I think that was a very intentional stylistic choice. It's supposed to be off-putting, it's supposed to be loud and distracting. Bane is a man that commands men, demands loyalty, and inspires devotion - his voice should be representative of that, and I think DKR did a great job of portraying that.

My issue with that is it's disembodied *to the audience* and not to the characters. If his voice is supposed to be disembodied and omnipresent, it should be experienced by the people in the story so that it's an actual character trait. There was no indication that this was the case.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby slinkdickens » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 11:03am

trippingmartian wrote:5 months pass, and we know this because it begins snowing all of a sudden.

Also, because when they set them up the bomb, they say it will explode in 5 months and later we're told that the bomb will explode in a matter of days (or hours?). The snow is another indication in case you miss the first one. I like that a lot better than giant text saying "5 months later..."

trippingmartian wrote:The bumbling police force is sort of aggravating as well. What happened to the GCPD we came to know in Gotham Central? I'm all for making police look like shitheads, but it's a bit of a contrivance to have them all walk single file into a trap. And their Gangs of New York-style fight with Bane's thugs? Why didn't any of the cops use their sidearms?

Yeah, at first I thought a few hundred police when into the sewers. Later I realize thousands of police are down there?! If you need that much police to take care of something, that's when you call the national guard! Also, they were never disarmed and went down there expecting to take down an armed criminal organization and in the big fight all they have are a few sidearms and their fists? That scene was a major fail.

trippingmartian wrote:What is with Alfred pussying off all of a sudden for no good reason? And would Batman of the comics quit crime fighting because his childhood friend died? Didn't he start fighting crime because he lost loved ones? It doesn't make any rational sense.

In this version of Batman, it makes perfect sense. His childhood friend and first true love died because of him (in his mind). On top of that, his hope for returning to a normal life died with Harvey, not because Harvey was killed but because Joker ruined him.

As for Alfred, in so many words he's leaving because it's the last tool he has to try and wake Bruce up. He's watched Bruce slip into derpression for 8 years and sees that Bruce is heading out as Batman looking to die.

trippingmartian wrote:I might go see it again, just to be fair to such an ambitious work, but my first impression is that it's a slightly above average comic movie that doesn't satisfyingly pay off anything that is set up in the prior two films.


It's far beyond average for a comic book movie, but I'd say slightly above average as a movie on the whole.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby slinkdickens » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 11:07am

GiantAsianMan wrote:
kenzo wrote:Yep. And while a lot of people thought it was weird and out of place that his voice felt disembodied, I think that was a very intentional stylistic choice. It's supposed to be off-putting, it's supposed to be loud and distracting. Bane is a man that commands men, demands loyalty, and inspires devotion - his voice should be representative of that, and I think DKR did a great job of portraying that.

My issue with that is it's disembodied *to the audience* and not to the characters. If his voice is supposed to be disembodied and omnipresent, it should be experienced by the people in the story so that it's an actual character trait. There was no indication that this was the case.


To me, it sounded like something was wrong with the sound mix. When I realized it wasn't the case, I had to force myself to get used to it. Later, I thought they may as well added heavy breathing to completely ape Darth Vader.

Also, my friend leans over to me and says, "How does he eat?" :lol:
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Guillermo_DudeL » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 11:43am

It would be a bit hard for the cops to come up with a more tactically effective plan of attack when there's ten minutes left before the bomb goes off.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kenzo » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 12:05pm

slinkdickens wrote:I saw all three movies in one shot, and I still didn't buy Bane's reasons for torturing Gotham before destroying it. There's a suggestion that he's a misguided ex-member of the League of Shadows, so him putting Gotham under seige in a spectacular fashion makes sense. But the bomb doesn't. It actually makes Bane come off as rather dense as though he completely misunderstands what the League of Shadows tries to do. Based on Batman Begins, they are in THE SHADOWS and never seem like outright terrorists, destroying cities when necessary, but always using some method that seems like misfortune (e.g. plague rats or a massive fire).

So, when Bane reveals his plan, I'm in the theater thinking, 'ok, Bane is smart enough to pull this off, but doesn't have a purpose'. It's asking me to assume a lot, but I can buy it at that point because he's setup as someone who might be trying to step into shoes he can't fill (Ra's al Ghul). But then,
Spoiler: show
it's revealed that Talia is behind it all
and that's when the logic broke and the whole ticking time bomb is nothing but a contrivance to cheaply garner suspense.
I get what you're saying, but I think it's still wrong. If you don't buy into the whole, "hope being necessary before true despair," then I don't know what to tell you - you're clearly not buying into the narrative thrust of this film. And whatever, that's your choice. However, it makes sense to me.

And as for it not fitting the M.O. of the League of Shadows, that's just categorically wrong. Bane never comes out and says "Yo guys, I'm part of the League of Shadows!" To the rest of the world, he's just a terrorist with revolutionary goals. It's certainly odd to see him in the limelight, but his true intentions are still cloaked. Also, you're forgetting that Ra's al Ghul has the League of Shadows take responsibility for the sacking of Rome and the fall of Constantinople - and those were very overt methods of destroying a city. Bane's actions in Gotham are absolutely consistent with the League's previous M.O.'s, they just take into consideration the modern realities of the 24hr news cycle and globalization to make a greater impact upon the world.

slinkdickens wrote:...at first I thought a few hundred police when into the sewers. Later I realize thousands of police are down there?! If you need that much police to take care of something, that's when you call the national guard! Also, they were never disarmed and went down there expecting to take down an armed criminal organization and in the big fight all they have are a few sidearms and their fists? That scene was a major fail.
Mobilizing the National Guard is no simple or easy task. You need to petition the powers that be, they need to get approvals, men from far off need to be mobilized and deployed, leadership at the national and the civil level need to have a bunch of conversations, it's all something you don't do on a moment's notice. Gordon sent everyone down into the sewers at the drop of a dime to root out a bunch of criminals; nobody knew what they were getting into. He wanted those criminals gone NOW - not in a day or so when the National Guard finally showed up. And being in a hospital bed, it's not like the leadership in Gotham had much teeth or the ability to do a bunch of quick negotiating w/ the necessary people to get the National Guard mobilized. Plus, you're forgetting the age old issue of jurisdiction - calling in the National Guard is basically giving up your jurisdiction and admitting that you fucked up and can't handle something. And honorable policemen with egos and pride are hard pressed to do ever do that.

GiantAsianMan wrote:
kenzo wrote:Yep. And while a lot of people thought it was weird and out of place that his voice felt disembodied, I think that was a very intentional stylistic choice. It's supposed to be off-putting, it's supposed to be loud and distracting. Bane is a man that commands men, demands loyalty, and inspires devotion - his voice should be representative of that, and I think DKR did a great job of portraying that.
My issue with that is it's disembodied *to the audience* and not to the characters. If his voice is supposed to be disembodied and omnipresent, it should be experienced by the people in the story so that it's an actual character trait. There was no indication that this was the case.
Isn't that the point of immersion - that we hear and see the things the characters hear and see so that we can better empathize with them? And I don't know about you, but it sure felt like every character on screen was on the edge of their seats whenever Bane was talking. Even in the opening/establishing scene, plane-dude was visibly shaken by the dude's voice the first time he heard it.

slinkdickens wrote:
trippingmartian wrote:I might go see it again, just to be fair to such an ambitious work, but my first impression is that it's a slightly above average comic movie that doesn't satisfyingly pay off anything that is set up in the prior two films.
It's far beyond average for a comic book movie, but I'd say slightly above average as a movie on the whole.
I had some issues with the film, but they were mostly minor quibbles that I could easily set aside and soak up the grandeur of the film. To me, this was the epic film I wanted out of movies like The Avengers or LotR: Return of the King that I always wanted but never got. (For me at least) Seeing a giant crowd of real actors march down the streets of a real Gotham to fight real baddies was better than any CG crap from LotR or Avengers.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Master Higgins » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 12:51pm

I haven't read all the posts, but I don't get slinkdickens' confusion over Bane's motivation. Bane tried to destroy Gotham because Talia told him to, so they could fulfill Ra's goal. This is clearly laid out in the movie.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby slinkdickens » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 1:50pm

Master Higgins wrote:I haven't read all the posts, but I don't get slinkdickens' confusion over Bane's motivation. Bane tried to destroy Gotham because Talia told him to, so they could fulfill Ra's goal. This is clearly laid out in the movie.


I wasn't confused about why, but why wait for the timer? Why not just hit the trigger? How about hit the trigger as soon as Batman shows up. It's not like Batman made a subtle entrance. He announced he was there!

Ok, so they wanna put on a show first, but was another few hours going to make a stronger point? I thought maybe they wanted to clear the blast zone first, but no, that's not why they waited. They have no reasonable motive for waiting, and in turn this makes the suspense behind the climax of the movie feel artificial.

Well, at least Batman didn't have to decide between the green wire and the red wire.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby darfox8 » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 2:26pm

It was to create despair. Same reason he didn't kill Batman.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kenzo » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 2:41pm

slinkdickens wrote:
Master Higgins wrote:I haven't read all the posts, but I don't get slinkdickens' confusion over Bane's motivation. Bane tried to destroy Gotham because Talia told him to, so they could fulfill Ra's goal. This is clearly laid out in the movie.


I wasn't confused about why, but why wait for the timer? Why not just hit the trigger? How about hit the trigger as soon as Batman shows up. It's not like Batman made a subtle entrance. He announced he was there!

Ok, so they wanna put on a show first, but was another few hours going to make a stronger point? I thought maybe they wanted to clear the blast zone first, but no, that's not why they waited. They have no reasonable motive for waiting, and in turn this makes the suspense behind the climax of the movie feel artificial.

Well, at least Batman didn't have to decide between the green wire and the red wire.
What Darfox said. Also, it isn't totally about reason. It's about egos. Bane wants Batman to suffer worse than death (something he said). That's why he keeps him alive. He is so cock-sure of himself and his abilities that he puts Batman in a situation to succeed because he assumes his ability to break Batman was absolute and complete. Bane is absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that Batman made a comeback - for a man so eloquent and good with words, he's completely speechless when Batman makes his triumphant return. The second time around he doesn't pull his punches, doesn't underestimate Batman, and contrary to Talia's orders attempts to kill Batman then and there as an acknowledgement that his he failed in his attempt to break him. It makes perfect sense within the context of the film, and the motivations of the characters.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby slinkdickens » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 4:33pm

One wonders how this movie might've been different if Heath Ledger were alive. I've enjoyed the times where the big bad villian in a Batman story has his grand plan further complicated by either the villian trying to use Joker or the Joker just being himself. It would've been cool to see Heath Ledger's Joker show up to turn an extra screw in the mayhem in Gotham. My guess is he would've been pissed if he thought Bane killed Batman.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby trippingmartian » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 8:39pm

slinkdickens wrote:
trippingmartian wrote:5 months pass, and we know this because it begins snowing all of a sudden.

Also, because when they set them up the bomb, they say it will explode in 5 months and later we're told that the bomb will explode in a matter of days (or hours?). The snow is another indication in case you miss the first one. I like that a lot better than giant text saying "5 months later..."

Sorry, what I meant was that the time lapse felt abrupt, not that it wasn't clear to the audience. I think other films have handled time lapses in much craftier fashions than on display here.

Your other points are perfectly reasonable, I just disagree on grounds of what I think the film should be. I find "Nolan's Batman" and "Nolan's Alfred", specifically in the 3rd film to be so far off the path laid down by the comics that it just feels wrong to me.
slinkdickens wrote:Also, my friend leans over to me and says, "How does he eat?" :lol:

:lol:
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Guillermo_DudeL » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 8:44pm

trippingmartian wrote:Your other points are perfectly reasonable, I just disagree on grounds of what I think the film should be. I find "Nolan's Batman" and "Nolan's Alfred", specifically in the 3rd film to be so far off the path laid down by the comics that it just feels wrong to me.

Elseworlds.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby trippingmartian » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 10:03pm

Guillermo_DudeL wrote:
trippingmartian wrote:Your other points are perfectly reasonable, I just disagree on grounds of what I think the film should be. I find "Nolan's Batman" and "Nolan's Alfred", specifically in the 3rd film to be so far off the path laid down by the comics that it just feels wrong to me.

Elseworlds.

Are hit-or-miss.

Batman: Earth One is bloody brilliant, though. Just a couple weeks old and sold out at my LCBS. It takes some liberties with the universe, whilst still capturing the spirit of what makes Batman Batman.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kenzo » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 10:13pm

Guillermo_DudeL wrote:
trippingmartian wrote:Your other points are perfectly reasonable, I just disagree on grounds of what I think the film should be. I find "Nolan's Batman" and "Nolan's Alfred", specifically in the 3rd film to be so far off the path laid down by the comics that it just feels wrong to me.
Elseworlds.
Image

Honestly, I really like the Nolan-Batman. I like it more than the comics. It's both a celebration and a deconstruction of Batman at the same time. Batman in the comics doesn't feel like something that could be real. Comic-Batman is perpetually 35 and never has to worry about the meniscus in his knees wearing out, or getting permanent brain damage from concussions. The Nolan-Batman feels like something that could happen IRL, and is the story about an ordinary man who achieves something fantastic, unnatural, and (even if only for a short time) makes the fantasy/heroics of comics into something real.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Guillermo_DudeL » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 10:19pm

Hell yeah Batman Jones.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Fade2Black » Jul 24th, 2012 @ 11:07pm

My previous post contains an image of the Adam Hughes Catwoman mugshot homage, and yes, her prisoner ID no. shares the same numbers as the winning lottery ticket in LOST.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby dakazu » Jul 25th, 2012 @ 11:30am

You know, I've been told this trilogy is better than the original Starwars trilogy.(1:08:52)
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kenzo » Jul 25th, 2012 @ 1:03pm

dakazu wrote:You know, I've been told this trilogy is better than the original Starwars trilogy.(1:08:52)
You've been told that because it is.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Olympia » Jul 26th, 2012 @ 5:51am

Olympia wrote:
kenzo wrote:I have a bunch of thoughts on this film, and a lot of rebuttles to what people have said so far. But for while - while I try to stop hyperventilating - I'll just sum up my impressions of this film:

The Dark Knight Rises was the Metal Gear Solid 4 of Batman.



let's hear your contrived and pedantic thoughts on that



you're right, i'm going to point the gun at trippingmartian again :)
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Mr_eX » Jul 26th, 2012 @ 6:01am

kenzo wrote:
dakazu wrote:You know, I've been told this trilogy is better than the original Starwars trilogy.(1:08:52)
You've been told that because it is.


Also the Blade trilogy.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby flufflogic » Jul 26th, 2012 @ 8:19am

IMO, there's lots better than the Blade trilogy...
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Mr_eX » Jul 26th, 2012 @ 12:46pm

That's the joke
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby dakazu » Jul 26th, 2012 @ 11:37pm

Your jokes are the worst!

Edit: Also I'm surprised that some people haven't seen this movie yet
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby trippingmartian » Jul 28th, 2012 @ 4:24pm

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