Wherein we discuss scripted events which are broadcast over analog and digital channels.

Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby MrBiggs » Feb 4th, 2013 @ 6:18am

Yeah, because if you go to the South now you never see the Confederate flag.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby kenzo » Feb 4th, 2013 @ 12:14pm

MrBiggs wrote:Yeah, because if you go to the South now you never see the Confederate flag.
You just compared an enlightened far future utopia to the mother fucking American South. :roll:
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 4th, 2013 @ 9:37pm

kenzo wrote:Trailer looks like shit, just like this superbowl.

Edit: So, there's still British flags still flying about in future-London? No. Wrong. Thanks for shitting all over Star Trek, assholes.


Earth still has different countries in Star Trek. Picard is from France
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby kenzo » Feb 4th, 2013 @ 9:57pm

Mr_eX wrote:Earth still has different countries in Star Trek. Picard is from France
Wrong. It's pretty well established that all national governments dissolved and Earth united under a single Earth government. People still might refer to geographical and cultural regions by their old national polities, and there was most certainly administrative regions defined by old political boundaries, but by the time of Kirk nations are a part of history, 100 years in the past. In fact, one of the crucial qualifications of membership into the Federation is planetary unity. We never see national flags from Earth at any time during Star Trek, unless it's specifically referring to something pre-Federation. This is pretty obviously something that amounts to a benign oversight meant to be an easy cue to mouth-breathing audience members to easily place things and events. But the unintended effect of this is that it undermines the setting/core message of Star Trek because the current makers and handlers of the franchise don't actually give two shits about Star Trek and what it means.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby Master Higgins » Feb 4th, 2013 @ 11:06pm

I mean, I love Star Trek. Love it. You know this.

The flag thing? I never would have even noticed it, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby kenzo » Feb 5th, 2013 @ 2:26am

I don't think that by itself it's a big deal, Higgins. I think there are far more egregious examples of messed up shit in these new Abrams movies like say, Starfleet Academy being more akin to boot camp and less an institute of higher learning that only admits the finest minds the Federation has to offer. But to me it's a small detail that's clearly symptomatic of how this franchise is being handled. This is Star Trek - and this is a future Earth where there's no petty nationalism, or religious feuds, or famine, or money, or cultural barriers that arbitrarily divide humanity. Roddenberry, or Harve Bennett, or the Okudas ,or fuck, even Rick Berman wouldn't have thrown an old nationalistic flag about willy nilly in Star Trek because they're symbols of the very things that Star Trek stands against. It's fuckin' dumb.

I think it's also interesting that there's a bustling future-London as well with lots of intact historical buildings and monuments when you'd figure one of the world's largest metropolitan areas would have been target 1A in the nuclear holocaust that fucks 21st Century Earth. But people can rebuild so whatever I guess.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby manta173 » Feb 5th, 2013 @ 8:40am

kenzo wrote:
Mr_eX wrote:Earth still has different countries in Star Trek. Picard is from France
Wrong. It's pretty well established that all national governments dissolved and Earth united under a single Earth government. People still might refer to geographical and cultural regions by their old national polities, and there was most certainly administrative regions defined by old political boundaries, but by the time of Kirk nations are a part of history, 100 years in the past. In fact, one of the crucial qualifications of membership into the Federation is planetary unity. We never see national flags from Earth at any time during Star Trek, unless it's specifically referring to something pre-Federation. This is pretty obviously something that amounts to a benign oversight meant to be an easy cue to mouth-breathing audience members to easily place things and events. But the unintended effect of this is that it undermines the setting/core message of Star Trek because the current makers and handlers of the franchise don't actually give two shits about Star Trek and what it means.


You sir are WRONG. The countries still exist and nationalism still exists. The countries all work together for the common good but they all still have their individuality. This means that they would all still have their flags. Think of it like the states... New York isn't fighting New Jersey... If the administrative regions were formed based on the old politcal boundaries at all (as you mentioned) they would retain their flags. It's just common sense. It does not undermine anything.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby meDotJS » Feb 5th, 2013 @ 8:55am

kenzo wrote:I think it's also interesting that there's a bustling future-London as well with lots of intact historical buildings and monuments when you'd figure one of the world's largest metropolitan areas would have been target 1A in the nuclear holocaust that fucks 21st Century Earth. But people can rebuild so whatever I guess.

They rebuilt a lot of those buildings after WWII, they can rebuild them after that big Nuclear Holocaust (did they ever call it WWIII in the show or did they just always refer to it as shitty times?). Plus most of those buildings are hundreds of years old, having them still be around hundreds of years from now isn't ridiculous.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby darfox8 » Feb 5th, 2013 @ 10:00am

Kenzo is right with this one. If it doesn't bother you that's fine but the flag is not suppose to be there. Every single time they mention a country in Star Trek they call them something like "one of those ancient nation-states". There are locations and continents(like land masses) but there are no Countries or republics or anything that would need a flag... besides the federation flag. Much less on an official like building, if some punk artist on the street had a patch with a flag on it that might be one thing but not like this.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby LiQuid » Feb 5th, 2013 @ 10:02am

I think the bigger issue here is how absolutely buttfucked retarded Star Trek's vision of Earth's future is.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby darfox8 » Feb 5th, 2013 @ 12:24pm

I like that it's a utopia but I also like that we almost wiped each other out like three time before we got there.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby Quillon » Feb 5th, 2013 @ 2:48pm

kenzo wrote:But the unintended effect of this is that it undermines the setting/core message of Star Trek because the current makers and handlers of the franchise don't actually give two shits about Star Trek and what it means.

I think Star Trek would be one billion percent improved if they never even paid lip service to the bright shiny future again. I'm as big an original series fan as there is, and that was never a major factor in what I loved about the show. (Thus: I hate all the other Trek TV series.)
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby Quillon » Feb 5th, 2013 @ 2:54pm

kenzo wrote:Roddenberry, or Harve Bennett, or the Okudas ,or fuck, even Rick Berman wouldn't have thrown an old nationalistic flag about willy nilly in Star Trek because they're symbols of the very things that Star Trek stands against.

I am eternally grateful that Gene Roddenberry got kicked upstairs midway through the first season of Star Trek, since it's clear in hindsight that Gene Coon was the guy in charge for the best season and a half of the original series. And grateful also that Roddenberry got booted upstairs after Star Trek: The Motion Picture and someone better suited to produce a fun feature film was installed in his place.

I'm also sad that we'll never get to hear Coon's reminiscences of the original series, since his perspective was probably unique.

(To be fair to Roddenberry, "The Cage" is a genuinely great hour of television, and that's all him, as far as I can tell.)
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby manta173 » Feb 5th, 2013 @ 3:23pm

darfox8 wrote:Kenzo is right with this one. If it doesn't bother you that's fine but the flag is not suppose to be there. Every single time they mention a country in Star Trek they call them something like "one of those ancient nation-states". There are locations and continents(like land masses) but there are no Countries or republics or anything that would need a flag... besides the federation flag. Much less on an official like building, if some punk artist on the street had a patch with a flag on it that might be one thing but not like this.


I still think you need to look at US government as an example here, states and even cities have their own flags. Why would that change under a global government? Each municipality will most likely have it's own flag, since travel is much simpler it will be less important and less emphacized for each person to have a nationality, but they will have it.

Also, the Federation is not the Earth's government any more then the UN is the United States' government.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby kenzo » Feb 5th, 2013 @ 4:14pm

Quillon wrote:I think Star Trek would be one billion percent improved if they never even paid lip service to the bright shiny future again.
*Yao Ming face*

manta173 wrote:I still think you need to look at US government as an example here, states and even cities have their own flags. Why would that change under a global government? Each municipality will most likely have it's own flag, since travel is much simpler it will be less important and less emphacized for each person to have a nationality, but they will have it.

Also, the Federation is not the Earth's government any more then the UN is the United States' government.
1.) The organization and administrative apparatuses of Earth is intentionally left vague in Star Trek because it simply isn't important to the story they're telling, that's because of something that you're not really getting here, and something you overlooked in your selective quote:

2.)
kenzo wrote:This is Star Trek - and this is a future Earth where there's no petty nationalism, or religious feuds, or famine, or money, or cultural barriers that arbitrarily divide humanity. Roddenberry, or Harve Bennett, or the Okudas ,or fuck, even Rick Berman wouldn't have thrown an old nationalistic flag about willy nilly in Star Trek because they're symbols of the very things that Star Trek stands against.
This speaks to the issue of the enlightened identity of humanity in a future where human beings see themselves as citizens of the Federation first and foremost, not as Earthlings (since humans have spread out among the stars and don't necessarily call Earth home), not belonging to some nation or state or municipality, and honestly, not necessarily even human considering the cross-speciation happening all over the show. When someone like Captain Picard gets captured and interrogated in Star Trek, he doesn't identify himself as some dude from France. He says he's a member of the Federation, or that he's from Earth. Putting an emphasis on old, obsolete, and phased out national identities in Star Trek is a retarded oversight.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby manta173 » Feb 6th, 2013 @ 9:00am

kenzo wrote:
Quillon wrote:I think Star Trek would be one billion percent improved if they never even paid lip service to the bright shiny future again.
*Yao Ming face*

manta173 wrote:I still think you need to look at US government as an example here, states and even cities have their own flags. Why would that change under a global government? Each municipality will most likely have it's own flag, since travel is much simpler it will be less important and less emphacized for each person to have a nationality, but they will have it.

Also, the Federation is not the Earth's government any more then the UN is the United States' government.
1.) The organization and administrative apparatuses of Earth is intentionally left vague in Star Trek because it simply isn't important to the story they're telling, that's because of something that you're not really getting here, and something you overlooked in your selective quote:

2.)
kenzo wrote:This is Star Trek - and this is a future Earth where there's no petty nationalism, or religious feuds, or famine, or money, or cultural barriers that arbitrarily divide humanity. Roddenberry, or Harve Bennett, or the Okudas ,or fuck, even Rick Berman wouldn't have thrown an old nationalistic flag about willy nilly in Star Trek because they're symbols of the very things that Star Trek stands against.
This speaks to the issue of the enlightened identity of humanity in a future where human beings see themselves as citizens of the Federation first and foremost, not as Earthlings (since humans have spread out among the stars and don't necessarily call Earth home), not belonging to some nation or state or municipality, and honestly, not necessarily even human considering the cross-speciation happening all over the show. When someone like Captain Picard gets captured and interrogated in Star Trek, he doesn't identify himself as some dude from France. He says he's a member of the Federation, or that he's from Earth. Putting an emphasis on old, obsolete, and phased out national identities in Star Trek is a retarded oversight.


I doubt many US soldiers would say they are from Chicago under interrogation... They would say they are from the US. Chicago has a flag, Illinois has a flag... Enlightened does not mean they forget the past, or ignore it. We all know Picard is French... Why would we know that? We all know Kirk is from Iowa... again why would he say this if it was no longer considered to be worthy of our enlightened thoughts. If people identify with a region in any way there will still be flags. Its simple, it is not flying in the face of all of Star Trek lore. We know that the two most famous Star Trek captains referenced their home regions. That means it is cannon that they still exist at least as a name of a location. To me that means they would retain their flags, especially near historic buildings.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby kenzo » Feb 6th, 2013 @ 10:24am

In all of Star Trek, do you ever see an Iowa state flag? Or an American flag? Or a French flag from the 23rd or 24th century? No. I rest my case.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby Quillon » Feb 6th, 2013 @ 11:53am

kenzo wrote:In all of Star Trek, do you ever see an Iowa state flag? Or an American flag? Or a French flag from the 23rd or 24th century? No. I rest my case.

Uh, yes, there's an American flag on prominent display in "The Omega Glory". Moreover, Kirk is able to quote the entire preamble to the Declaration of Independence from memory. (See also the write-up here on the importance of the US to some series characters.)

There's also the 52-star US flag in this TNG episode.

Nice try, though.

In true Trek rationalization fashion, I would point out that the English have historically been more reluctant than many similar peoples (e.g., Europeans, Americans) to sublimate their national (or state) identity to a larger entity (witness their resistance to adopting the Euro), so in that light it's not uncharacteristic to see British flags flying in Star Trek's London. (Has Trek ever been to London of the 23rd or 24th centuries before?)
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby kenzo » Feb 6th, 2013 @ 1:35pm

Quillon wrote:
kenzo wrote:In all of Star Trek, do you ever see an Iowa state flag? Or an American flag? Or a French flag from the 23rd or 24th century? No. I rest my case.

Uh, yes, there's an American flag on prominent display in "The Omega Glory". Moreover, Kirk is able to quote the entire preamble to the Declaration of Independence from memory. (See also the write-up here on the importance of the US to some series characters.)

There's also the 52-star US flag in this TNG episode.

Nice try, though.

In true Trek rationalization fashion, I would point out that the English have historically been more reluctant than many similar peoples (e.g., Europeans, Americans) to sublimate their national (or state) identity to a larger entity (witness their resistance to adopting the Euro), so in that light it's not uncharacteristic to see British flags flying in Star Trek's London. (Has Trek ever been to London of the 23rd or 24th centuries before?)
So, your proof is a flag from a parallel Earth, and an ancient flag from the 21st Century. And in those episodes, they both talk about the US in a past tense like the political entity doesn't exist anymore. You're really fucking bad at this.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby kenzo » Feb 6th, 2013 @ 1:43pm

I really want to harp on this a little bit more. Seriously, you used "The Omega Glory" - an episode about the pitfalls of mindless nationalism and how future-humanity has evolved beyond such pointless divisions, as an example of why there are still nation-states on Earth and why that idea doesn't conflict with the central themes of Star Trek. Give me a fuckin' break. :lol:
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby Quillon » Feb 6th, 2013 @ 1:59pm

You should ask better questions. You asked whether in all of Star Trek we ever saw those things. I looked at that and thought, "Does he really mean this? It seems really naive." But since you took the time to emphasize "In all of Star Trek" I decided that you really meant it as a serious question.

So, now I know not to take what you say seriously. Good to know.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby kenzo » Feb 6th, 2013 @ 2:22pm

Or you should learn some reading comprehension, as I made it clear I was asking about flags from the 22nd or 23rd century. Either way, you being forced to nitpick diction in order to find even the smallest of insignificant victories pretty much closes the book on this argument.

In all honesty, I'm glad you enjoy these films and you would probably love the new Star Wars junk since that sounds like it's even more up your alley. But Abrams' Star Trek does a bad job of being faithful to the core themes that have defined Star Trek thus far.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby Quillon » Feb 6th, 2013 @ 2:30pm

Uh-huh.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby darfox8 » Feb 6th, 2013 @ 4:05pm

Once again, Kenzo is right about this one. It's kinda a hallow victory since it's no big deal that there's one insignificant flag but in my opinion(as someone who has recently watched most of Trek) it's very important there are no more countries in Star Trek. It's the point of being part of the federation. It doesn't make sense for there to be a British flag hung next to a federation flag. Lets say that even if there was one in an episode of Trek that doesn't mean it right. There's literally dozens of bad episodes of Star Trek that betray the universe and the characters in one way or another and this JJ film seems to be yet another one.

Also Quillon and manta, I understand your logic, when you explain it so simply what your saying makes perfect sense but it's still bullshit and wrong. As Kenzo said those examples of flags in the old series aren't comparable to the flags in the trailer. There's no nation states anymore, that doesn't mean there's no culture anymore, but there's definitely no nationalistic display of government like a flag.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby manta173 » Feb 7th, 2013 @ 8:46am

darfox8 wrote:Once again, Kenzo is right about this one. It's kinda a hallow victory since it's no big deal that there's one insignificant flag but in my opinion(as someone who has recently watched most of Trek) it's very important there are no more countries in Star Trek. It's the point of being part of the federation. It doesn't make sense for there to be a British flag hung next to a federation flag. Lets say that even if there was one in an episode of Trek that doesn't mean it right. There's literally dozens of bad episodes of Star Trek that betray the universe and the characters in one way or another and this JJ film seems to be yet another one.

Also Quillon and manta, I understand your logic, when you explain it so simply what your saying makes perfect sense but it's still bullshit and wrong. As Kenzo said those examples of flags in the old series aren't comparable to the flags in the trailer. There's no nation states anymore, that doesn't mean there's no culture anymore, but there's definitely no nationalistic display of government like a flag.


I'll have to get on mumble this weekend to beat this into your head. (Kenzo is never right. lol... but that's a side issue)

I am not saying there are still nations, it just doesn't make sense for there not to be political regions broken down into smaller parts to manage government. I am just saying they would retain their identities (flags). How much has the British flag changed in the last 200 years... I assume the same amount it will change in the next 200, so calling it outdated is just stupid.

Also France is not a subsidiary of the Federation. France is part of Earth which is a member of the Federation. I thought most nerds accepted the Federation was like the UN assuming the UN worked and was useful and not horribly corrupt. Individual "home planets" are the members representing thier home species... Colonies of humans from Earth on different planets are not different members of the Federation.

Earth is the governing body of itself. Yes it is the founder of the Federation with Vulcan and maybe others... too detailed for my memory, but the head of the Federation is not the head of Earth, Vulcan or whatever your favorite planet is. Just look at the whole plot line of DS9 trying to get Bejor (sp?) to join.

So if you can ignore specific episodes of the connon because you don't like them then what the hell is the point of any detail.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby darfox8 » Feb 7th, 2013 @ 12:48pm

What does the British branch of the federation do? Do they try and stop knife crimes? Do they try and crack down on car boot sales? Do they regulate illegal immigrants? Do they make taxes? Do they do any of the things current government does? It's a completely different world they live in, any problems they have aren't "English" problems they're Earth problems. And just because a federation building is located in London does not make it the "London Subsidiary" of the "United Kingdom Branch of The federation". That's not the point of the federation. It's one thing. A flag is just logically inconsistent to that, especially when it's not inside of a museum but on an official like building. Ofcourse London exist and Paris exist, the Federation didn't erase all existence of culture(which is some thing that opponents of the federation constantly accuse them of) the federation accepts and honors their past through history but moves forward without the petty insignificant or damaging things... like National flags. This is such a dumb argument.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby kenzo » Feb 7th, 2013 @ 5:01pm

manta173 wrote:I'll have to get on mumble this weekend to beat this into your head. (Kenzo is never right. lol... but that's a side issue)
This is not constructive.

manta173 wrote:So if you can ignore specific episodes of the connon because you don't like them then what the hell is the point of any detail.
It's funny because, I'm not ignoring anything in any episode. There's literally not a single time where they show an old national flag outside of a historical reference. Yours and Quillion are the ones ignoring heaping mountains of evidence (going to the point where you use an episode where its entire theme is about deconstruction nationalism to try and make your point).
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby Mr_eX » Feb 7th, 2013 @ 9:50pm

Even after United Earth was formed, many nation-states and confederations retained their individual identities. This included the African Confederation, Canada, the European Alliance, Soviet Union and the United States of America. (TNG: "The Price", "Conundrum", "Lower Decks", "The Naked Now"; VOY: "Imperfection")
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby kenzo » Feb 19th, 2013 @ 5:13pm


New featurette. Man, this movie looks like shit.
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness

Postby Mr_eX » Mar 9th, 2013 @ 12:02pm

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