kenzo wrote:Say that to my face IRL, tough guy.
BvS is a triumph of cinema and one of mankind's greatest accomplishments.
Early contender for most kenzo post 2016
It's been a thing since The Dark Knight Returns, which is the primary inspiration for this version of Batman.HarryBlack wrote:Batman did still kill some folks after he realised the error of his ways. Is that just his thing now?
Superman calls his mother 'Martha' because he knows it will get Batman's attention. Clark Kent is a reporter, and a damned good one. Who also has the benefit of super hearing and x-ray vision. He figured out who Batman is. He calls him 'Bruce' at the beginning of the fight. You really think he wouldn't look up some basic info on Clark Kent and notice, "Hey, that guy is probably really hung up on his dead parents, and coincidentally his mom's name is the same as my mom's name." He's on his back, he's staring death in the eye, and he uses his last gasps to plead with Batman to at least save his mother in the smartest way possible. It's a weird and awkward scene, but it's supposed to be. Because what else is realistically going to snap Batman - the guy who won't even kill the Joker - out from such a bloodlust and conviction to kill a man?HarryBlack wrote:What if some of those mooks had mothers called Martha? He never even stopped to ask.
It didn't work because Superman realized that Lex was the real threat, and he realized he was in the wrong and Batman was right. Sans Lex Luthor, Superman shows up to stop Batman, just like he showed up during the car chase.HarryBlack wrote:Batmans plan to signal Superman for the fight didnt work. He only showed up because Luthor made him. Did Batman bring a book to read? How long was he going to try that tactic?
It's less that sending Batman was the better option for saving Martha Kent, and more that sending Superman was the better option for stopping Lex Luthor, which was clearly the much more pressing danger. It actually demonstrated a lot of character growth for Superman, who previously in the movie seems very selfish in his perspective and his priorities. And here he is putting the needs of the public above his personal needs, and learning to trust other people.HarryBlack wrote:If Superman was scared they would kill his mother if his super fast ass tried to save her, why was sending in old Batman a better option? Great fight scene, could have been less murdery. No reason for that flame thrower to be there except to have him shoot it and kill that guy.
Killing Robin was something I thought was possibly implied, or at least referenced, but not something that was stated with any certainty. There's also a big difference between the threat imposed by a villain that operates on a small scale like the Joker usually does, versus Superman who is - by Batman's summation - an existential threat to the entire planet. If the Joker the next day was going to potentially kill all of mankind, and the only way to stop him was to kill him, Batman would kill the Joker in a heartbeat. Nobody gets mad when Batman kills a bunch of parademons in order to save the planet.HarryBlack wrote:Why does Superman push Bruce over the edge and not Joker killing Robin? Is Joker dead in this continuity?
I'll grant that the car chase was dumb, but a batmobile chase in a Batman movie is quintessential. And a whole lotta people like those Batman games, dumb Batmobile segments and all. However, I LOVE that we only get to see the aftermath of the Lexcorp break-in. It's deft usage of a classic narrative trick where the implication of violence ends up being so much more powerful a tool than actually showing the audience what happened. It lets the imagination spin and weave a cooler story than could have possibly been crafted. It also plays wonderfully into the mystique of Batman - who operates in the shadows. This kind of scene is going to be the vast majority of exposure people IRL would have to a Batman character sweeping in and doing stuff. It's little bits like this that really demonstrate that the film, at its core, understand a lot of what defines Batman & Superman.HarryBlack wrote:I wish we got to see Batman break into Lexcorp instead of that dumb murdery car chase. Thats something I hated in Arkham Knight too actually.
She stole the movie, hands down. I only wish they hadn't begun to heavily feature her in promotional material to get people in theaters, because her reveal as Wonder Woman could have been epic, and instead you know who it is from the first moment. Second time I watched BvS, the theater was only about a 1/3rd full, and the whole theater rose in applause when she showed up. The loudest cheers I heard during opening weekend viewing of Star Wars: Episode 7, was during the BvS trailer when Wonder Woman shows up. Wonder Woman was awesome, I'm stoked AF for her solo-movie.HarryBlack wrote:Gal Gadot was ok. I think we have to separate her performance from the CGI person doing the fighting. I think I would have preferred her more no nonsense and impatient with Bruce than all coy and mysterious and flirty. If I saw it without knowing who she was, I might have guessed Catwoman. She didnt seem like Diana to me. Thats Snyders fault and not something I hated at all.
He's wearing a mecha suit for reasons I'm sure will be elaborated later. I didn't even recognize it was the Flash on the first viewing on account of the actor being brown, the mecha suit, and most importantly the swirling vortex of light and sound. But that's totally the Flash. And the peek you get of his regular suit under the flipped up mecha visor, looks pretty good IMO. The mask he's wearing is a much better mask than TV Barry gets to wear.HarryBlack wrote:Why does Flash look SOOO bad?
In a show full of obvious visual metaphors and dream sequences, how is this really that complicated to you? He's off soul-searching in the wilderness, and has a conversation with the memory of his father. He states earlier in the film that all he's been trying to live up to 'the dream of a farmer' (his dad) and that he's not sure that's even working or worth it. So when he's off remembering what his dad was like, and either remembering stuff he was told before, or imagining what his father would have said if he was there, he finds a little more of himself and walks away with some clarity and more motivation to keep being a hero (namely - recalling his father's commentary that his wife was 'his world', which Clark finds inspirational and uses in the finale when he reiterates that to Lois before his suicide mission).HarryBlack wrote:What was going on with Pa Kent? Did Clark go and spend days asleep, dreaming about hiking or...what was up with that? Because we are told he is missing during that time right?
I don't even know how you or other people came to this conclusion, when he doesn't seem to say anything even implying that he knows Clark Kent's secret. But if he does know, I honestly like that. I freaking HATE the stupid superhero trope where the hero keeps his/her identity secret, even to the people closest to them. It really paints the supporting cast like freaking idiots for not being able to spot they're the same person immediately. I love that Lois figured out Superman's identity immediately. I love that Superman figured out Batman immediately. I love that Lex Luthor figured out both of their identities and manipulates both of them into doing his bidding. It treats its characters like they're actually smart instead of freaking morons. And you can tell a lot of interesting stories about heroes having to deal with people knowing their identities. Meanwhile, you sarcastically say "World's Greatest Detective" but this is legit, the very first Batman film where we get to see Batman do some actual freaking detective work.HarryBlack wrote:Does Perry actually know he is Superman? How? I totally missed that everytime I watched MoS. Thats REALLY dumb. Is the worlds greatest detective the ONLY person who doesnt know? Whats even the point of secret identities in this?
The only two people we hear about getting branded were craven sex criminals (a serial rapist, and a sex trafficker). It's easy to assume that Batman saves his bat-brand for only the worst of the worst like these two. Jails are full of awful people who all commiserate with each other, but even those people all despise sex criminals (like pedophiles and rapists) and those people pretty regularly end up with giant targets on them for their criminal past anyways. So Batman is just facilitating regular jail dynamics. Seems pretty in line with both the "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you either" line of Bat-philosophy, as well as TDKR super jaded and gritty Bat-philosophy (IIRC, the branding is pulled directly from TDKR?).HarryBlack wrote:Why would a Bat brand make people beat you to death? Surely it would be a badge of honour? And why doesnt Bruce either not do it or kill them himself?
[/quote]Every time I reflect on this movie, I love it more and more. It's actually amazing. It does have some problems (I don't think the dream sequences were as necessary, and it's painfully obvious that most of the audience watching this apparently needed more hand-holding when it comes to getting inside characters' heads and understanding their motivations) but they aren't problems I care about. And everything else is just awesome. Maybe when I have more steam, I'll breakdown all the AMAZING things that happened in this movie, and how it's the best film since Yojimbo.HarryBlack wrote:All in all, I did not like the movie and kind of like it less every day.
kenzo wrote:It didn't work because Superman realized that Lex was the real threat, and he realized he was in the wrong and Batman was right. Sans Lex Luthor, Superman shows up to stop Batman, just like he showed up during the car chase.HarryBlack wrote:Batmans plan to signal Superman for the fight didnt work. He only showed up because Luthor made him. Did Batman bring a book to read? How long was he going to try that tactic?
GiantAsianMan wrote:Except there was nothing to stop Batman from. He wasn't doing anything when Superman arrived; he was *waiting* for Superman. He set traps for Superman. He shined his signal in the air over his city to call Superman(????). Superman only goes over to Gotham after Lex threatens his mother (who he had already kidnapped), which only happened after Superman arrived to save Lois, who Lux had just pushed off the side of his building. Batman had no part in any of it. He wanted to fight Superman, yes, but he did absolutely nothing to engage in a fight. He's grand plan was to just wait and hope Superman showed up.
After a line like that, you really think that the next time the bat-signal gets shined, Superman wouldn't be on the lookout for Batman and try to confront him if he showed up in cape and cowl? Because that's exactly what Superman is telling Batman. I don't think it's an unreasonable thing for Batman to expect Superman to show up and make good on his word. This is such a ridiculous non-issue.Superman wrote:Next time they shine your light, don't go. The Bat is dead. Bury it. Consider this mercy.
WHY ARE YOU IGNORING THE GIGANTIC BAT SIGNAL IN THE SKY, CLEARLY VISIBLE FROM METROPOLIS, AND HOW SUPERMAN SAID HE WOULD INTERVENE IF BATMAN ANSWERED THE BAT SIGNAL AGAIN. GAM, you are a smart man. I don't know how you aren't seeing this, and hung up on such a stupid, insignificant detail with such an easy explanation.GiantAsianMan wrote:*Edit: wait- did Batman set some abandoned buildings on fire to try and lure Superman? I think he might have done something like that. Regardless, that is also a crap plan. Are we assuming that Superman regularly flies across the bay to help the citizens of Gotham as well? Because that was never established, and in fact, might have been directly refuted. Bruce Wayne makes it very clear to Clark Kent that Superman is The Daily Planet's deal and Metropolis's hero, implying that he isn't making stops over in Gotham and that he might not be welcome if he did (the line about dressing up like clowns). So without Luthor's intervention, there was no reason for Superman to go to Gotham and face Batman.
kenzo wrote:WHY ARE YOU IGNORING THE GIGANTIC BAT SIGNAL IN THE SKY, CLEARLY VISIBLE FROM METROPOLIS, AND HOW SUPERMAN SAID HE WOULD INTERVENE IF BATMAN ANSWERED THE BAT SIGNAL AGAIN. GAM, you are a smart man. I don't know how you aren't seeing this, and hung up on such a stupid, insignificant detail with such an easy explanation.
Superman has freaking super speed, super strength, and freaking LASER BEAMS FROM HIS EYES. You jog up to him with a spear, or let him know one is nearby, you risk him just peacing out on the fight, or worse yet, just laser-blasting the weapon. Batman has to mislead Superman and use misdirection and subterfuge to defeat him. Opening up with more conventional weapons isn't meant to stop Superman, it's meant to lull him into a false sense of security to get the jump on him. He shrugs off the initial weapons as NBD, so when the kryptonite gas grenade gets launched at him, he doesn't even try to dodge it, he just grabs it and lets it do its thing, allowing for a more even leveled fight afterwards. This is like, simple shit I'm explaining to you. Self-evident shit. But you appear to be incapable - or as I suspect - unwilling to see that the movie more than makes sense and explains itself.GiantAsianMan wrote:What's Batman doing leading with non-Kryptonite weapons? Why does he try and lure Superman to Gotham only to then lure him someplace else in Gotham kinda close by where left the kill weapon? If the point's to just kill him, why not just go with this plan: 1)find Superman (however dumb that plan may be), 2)use the aerosoled Kryptonite to momentarily disable Superman, 3)stab Superman with Kryptonite spear. And this is what Batman does, he just adds 38 steps inbetween; why? It's because a movie called Batman v. Superman has to have a fight scene between those two (which I am perfectly okay with), and Zack Snyder's not good enough of a director to do that without a convoluted and inane setup that's full of plot holes.
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