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The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby Master Higgins » Sep 2nd, 2011 @ 9:26pm

Lots of Marvel talk this week, including Colossus' new costume, and Spider-Island updates!

:twisted:
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 2nd, 2011 @ 9:49pm

Trololol
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby jinpei05 » Sep 3rd, 2011 @ 12:20am

Twice in one day, Geoff Johns managed to underwhelm and disappoint. It's a sign of the apocolypse.

Flashpoint ultimately failed because:

1) The story depended upon reading some of the tie-ins were essential to the base story, especially Emperor Aquaman and Wonder Woman, and at no point is it made clear which ones you needed to read.

2) Johns only had five issues to tell an epic tale, and crucial elements and characters were glazed over, such as rescuing Superman and Grifter's Resistance.

3) The ending was predictable (if you've followed Johns's Flash recent writing history) and brings the overall impact of the story down.

Props to Kubert's artwork and the ending conversation between Barry and Bruce Wayne, which actually managed to make me choke up a bit.

This supports my belief that Barry Allen is only retroactively an interesting hero. He should've stayed dead.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 3rd, 2011 @ 4:53am

Incoming long post!!!

First off, question: Why don't you guys do your podcast on Friday every week? It was exciting hearing you guys able to talk about the week's releases instead of just rambling along and responding to listener mail. Now you're saying you're going to do another episode in 2 days on the normal day, but really what's going to happen between now and then? After reading Flashpoint I'm actually pretty damn excited to pick up a few of the new books coming out next week but if I gotta wait two weeks to hear you guys talk about em how am I going to know which ones to get (read: the ones Brock hates :D )???

Regarding Flashpoint, I'm totally with Higgins on it. I really liked it. I didn't read any of the minis. I don't give a rat's ass what Wonder Woman and Aquaman are beefing about in a (to me) pointless alternate reality. Barry and Thomas Wayne were the only main characters and stories I needed from the series and I got great resolution from both. I thought Flashpoint did a really good job of:

A. telling an entertaining, concise, easy to follow story (and this as a total noob to The Flash mind! What the fuck is a speed force?!)

2. telling a poignant, human story in regards to Barry's mom and Bruce's pop (Batman's tears are the manliest tears of all!) and,

d. bridging the gap to the reboot. Most importantly, it bridged that gap in a way that shows that the DC universe has the potential to be COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS and it basically spoke directly to me as a new reader by saying that "hey, it's ok to dismiss the past decades of all this ridiculous continuity because we can basically rewrite it all in the span of a few splash pages." It was a great way to wipe the slate of all the silly crises and black nights and bright days and whatever the hell else I've been missing out on.

To all that I say mission accomplished. I'm sure getting into the New 52 is going to be 110% possible without having read Flashpoint, but I'm absolutely glad I decided to and I'm actually more excited about reading DC now than I ever have been in my entire life. Even characters I previously cared all of fuck and all about like Supes, Bats and Flash.

Do I understand why "yet another alternate dimension" story would be unexciting to more jaded fans like Brock and Jinpei? Absolutely. I'm sure you guys deal with this stuff every other week, but as someone who literally read his first comic book with Flash in it yesterday, this satisfied. I do agree with Jinpei though that I would have loved to see more of this particular journey (that of Barry and Thomas) fleshed out in a longer mainline series instead of relegated to minis, but I think they needed to do it this way in order to keep more of their titles relevant in a month where they are (in their own words in the ed page) anticipating the question "Why buy DC comics in August?" They had to keep readers' interest spread over multiple books to keep sales up when existing fans knew the fresh start was coming.

Also as an aside to that, Brock I really hope you payed attention to Higgins' explanation as to why Flash's "new" suit, was his "normal" suit in his mind at the end of Flashpoint. The entire series was a bridge from old to new and the bridge also exists now, seamlessly, in the minds of the characters. Flash essentially created the New 52 in Flashpoint 5 when he knocked himself off the treadmill ( :lol: Flash runs on a treadmill to time travel! :lol: ).

I think that just about handles it. My thoughts on JL#1 were covered in its particular thread. I just wanted to chime in on the other half of this week's discussion. I dunno how long I'm going to be able to maintain the commitment, but I think DC might have succeeded in converting someone who acknowledges he's a really tough sell. As Higgins said in the podcast, I hope the existing fanbase is willing to put up with a little redundancy and put aside the old continuity (those stories aren't diminished by the fact that they don't "matter" in the New 52!) if it means making an honest push at some new readership.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby Master Higgins » Sep 3rd, 2011 @ 9:51am

Hot damn, Liquid. Nice post.

As for why we moved recording to Monday, it really is just because we're both at the store, and we close early so we can record and get out at a decent hour.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby jinpei05 » Sep 3rd, 2011 @ 1:45pm

To clarify, I'm not all that jaded on comics. My gripe is specifically focused on Barry Allen who is not that interesting a hero and his Rebirth, which was not as good as Hal Jordan's.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby Roadie Brock » Sep 4th, 2011 @ 12:56am

Is it Monday yet?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 4th, 2011 @ 2:50am

Roadie Brock wrote:Is it Monday yet?

I like talking about comics with you too, Brock! I hope you don't go off on a tangent next week about how few replies your Comics Conspiracy thread has garnered after that all pro discussion! 8-)
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby Roadie Brock » Sep 4th, 2011 @ 11:47am

LiQuid wrote:
Roadie Brock wrote:Is it Monday yet?

I like talking about comics with you too, Brock! I hope you don't go off on a tangent next week about how few replies your Comics Conspiracy thread has garnered after that all pro discussion! 8-)


We talk comics? Again is it Monday yet?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 4th, 2011 @ 1:39pm

Is Higgins making you work on Labor Day? :lol:
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby jinpei05 » Sep 4th, 2011 @ 4:29pm

LiQuid wrote:First off, question: Why don't you guys do your podcast on Friday every week? It was exciting hearing you guys able to talk about the week's releases instead of just rambling along and responding to listener mail. Now you're saying you're going to do another episode in 2 days on the normal day, but really what's going to happen between now and then? After reading Flashpoint I'm actually pretty damn excited to pick up a few of the new books coming out next week but if I gotta wait two weeks to hear you guys talk about em how am I going to know which ones to get (read: the ones Brock hates :D )???


Any way you slice it, they're going to be behind on the current week of releases. The only way this podcast could be even close to current is if they recorded every Wednesday night after the store closed to discuss the new releases that day and published on Thursday morning.

Also, this week is special because of the relaunch and end of a major summer event like Flashpoint. I suspect that the podcasts current format will serve better in the future because they'll talk about weekly releases that aren't nearly as high profile, which will bore those not up to speed. Plus, there's always random related topics to talk about, like the Avengers movie shooting in Manhattan this weekend.

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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 4th, 2011 @ 4:56pm

2 days late would be better than 5. ;)
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby uppi17 » Sep 5th, 2011 @ 7:00am

I mostly agree with Jinpei on this one. I only read Flashpoint and Batman - Knight of Vengeance and I frequently got lost regarding stuff like why Wonder Woman and Aquaman were fighting, or who certain characters were (I only really read the Batman comics from DC, although I'm giving JL a try). Also the end issue was a quite predictable and simple ending made a bit too confusing. However the last five or so pages were excellent.

I feel that you could have either had five more issues and told the same tale better, or kept it at five only and stripped out a lot of the useless characters and plot.

My local comic shop in the UK is having a midnight opening this Tuesday for the new DC comics so I'll be getting them a few hours before you lot. Assuming I'm not asleep as usual.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 5th, 2011 @ 10:59am

But why does it even matter why Wonder Woman and Aquaman are fighting? It's completely irrelevant. It's a bullshit alternate reality that at the end of the story is absolutely meaningless.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby uppi17 » Sep 5th, 2011 @ 1:36pm

If it's irrelevant then why tell us at all?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 5th, 2011 @ 1:52pm

Because they needed a backdrop for HEY THIS IS TOTALLY FUCKING BANANAS BACKWARDS LAND MY MOM IS TRYING TO FUCK ME WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE FUTURE!!!!

It's called a MacGuffin.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby Prometheum5 » Sep 5th, 2011 @ 6:04pm

Just finished the episode, and all I can say is:

LOL at you DC Comics suckers. What a convoluted sounding mess. I'll be over here, ingesting all of my DC content via movies and cartoons. It's always so weird to me that Batman can continue to work as this grounded and low-level 'realistic' crime-fighter while existing in what sounds like the most complicated 'high-concept' navel-gazing universe out there.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 5th, 2011 @ 6:31pm

It's really not convoluted at all. The best I can figure is the majority of comic fans are just real stupid.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby Prometheum5 » Sep 5th, 2011 @ 6:36pm

LiQuid wrote:It's really not convoluted at all. The best I can figure is the majority of comic fans are just real stupid.


I certainly wouldn't disagree with you there. I would have to assume that, moving forward, the DC universe will be much cleaner and more streamlined, and that's probably a very good thing. Whatt amazes me is that they could run the entire continuity into such a point that it needed the hardest reset comics have ever seen. Listening to some of the past episodes of CC where Ryan describes things like Superboy Prime is the most mind-boggling shit I have ever heard. How can people even put up with that nonsense? For frame of reference, I enjoyed Heroes Reborn, and even I thought that Infinite Crisis stuff sounded absurd.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby uppi17 » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 12:14am

LiQuid wrote:Because they needed a backdrop for HEY THIS IS TOTALLY FUCKING BANANAS BACKWARDS LAND MY MOM IS TRYING TO FUCK ME WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE FUTURE!!!!

It's called a MacGuffin.


Thanks for pointing that out. I never knew that.

Did you also know that it can help if people actually understand what the MacGuffin actually is (without having to buy an extra three or so comics just to explain the MacGuffin)?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 1:05am

uppi17 wrote:what the MacGuffin actually is

You're clearly unfamiliar with the concept and kind of a dumbass.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby uppi17 » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 1:24am

LiQuid wrote:
uppi17 wrote:what the MacGuffin actually is

You're clearly unfamiliar with the concept and kind of a dumbass.


If you can't be bothered to write a plausible and interesting MacGuffin then you're a shit writer.

EDIT: Or a lazy one.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 1:34am

Dude, the entire point of a MacGuffin is that it doesn't matter. How stupid are you? Have you ever seen Pulp Fiction? The MacGuffin is a light in a briefcase. Would you have liked Pulp Fiction better if there was more explanation as to what the light was? Seriously, I'm not even trying to be mean but how do you function?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby uppi17 » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 2:57am

So why have numerous spin-off issues explaining a MacGuffin in Flashpoint?

EDIT: Thanks for explaining so effectively without resorting to insults.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 3:21am

uppi17 wrote:So why have numerous spin-off issues explaining a MacGuffin in Flashpoint?

To sell comic books. The information contained in the spinoffs is nonessential material, but is provided to sell comic books by further fleshing out trivialities. Not knowing why Wonder Woman and Aquaman are fighting in the main line Flashpoint series does not hurt it because it doesn't matter. All the reader needs to know is A. Shit's fucked up, and B. Flash has to fix said fucked up shit. That is it. The meaninglessness of the confrontation is compounded by the fact that it's a wholly nonexistent timeline provided that Flash succeeds in fixing said fucked up shit, which we now know he does. The world that Flash spends most of his time in Flashpoint is the equivalent of the old TV trope of showing a bunch of retarded shit going on and then having the protagonist wake up as if from a dream. All the nonsense was completely meaningless to the big picture and complaining that a dream sequence in a television show wasn't fleshed out enough would make you a god damned crazy person.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby uppi17 » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 3:41am

So the concept of a MacGuffin is that it shouldn't be explained except for some arbitrary point you use to make it fit your argument?

Neither Jinpei nor myself understood why the war happened and it ruined our enjoyment of the story so I wouldn't class it as a MacGuffin myself.

I definitely wrote some crap words earlier, but I was going by your reasoning that the war in Flashpoint was a MacGuffin so I thought I understood it incorrectly. Now I realise I was wrong to believe you that it was a MacGuffin so I apologise for my confusing replies.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby LiQuid » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 3:47am

Are you a native English speaker? How old are you? I feel like I'm having a conversation with a doorknob.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby uppi17 » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 4:34am

LOL
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby Prometheum5 » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 5:43am

MacGuffins are inherently not well defined. Their purpose is not in their existence, but in whatever they facilitate. They can be used by lazy writers to avoid solidifying their narrative, but they also have the great effect of making it clear that the story moving forward is the point, not the background.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 21

Postby kenzo » Sep 6th, 2011 @ 12:19pm

LiQuid wrote:Are you a native English speaker?
Isn't Uppi from England? :lol: Fucking LiQuid.
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