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The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby Master Higgins » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 7:19am

Light on comic news this week, so we're talking all sorts of various stuff. Enjoy!
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby Master Higgins » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 7:29am

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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby LiQuid » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 12:34pm

Man, Higgins use some of your damn clout to push Shade on some fuckers! I literally can't think of any reason why anybody would dislike it!!
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby Guillermo_DudeL » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 5:49pm

I'm on Ryan's side on The Big Bang Theory. To me it's as bad Blaxsploitation or Tyler Perry films (at worst a minstrel show) where it relies on the focus of characters that ,while not necessarily negative stereotypes, still are stereotypes that create a limited perception of what nerds are like, that's why the majority of Big Bang Theory fans are not regular nerds but rather people amused at the concept of nerds. Big Bang Theory also makes very "safe" and "easy" nerd references. Sure not everyone is an expert on DC Comics and Star Trek but those are still in the pop cultural mainstream because of years of successful movies and television shows. You will never see The Big Bang Theory make references to Will Eisner, Twin Peaks, MST3K, Don Bluth, Devo, or other "nerdy" nerd things. And there is a different mentality between Community and Big Bang Theory in how it handles nerd references. Community uses conventions and tropes from different movies and shows because it explores how they affect storytelling and this is highlighted with the meta character Abed, an aspiring filmmaker. Big Bang Theory stops whatever standard sitcom plot it is currently involved in in order to pander for a bit with some easy references in a pathetic attempt to say to nerds "Hey we're just like you!" Community is an intellectual exploration of nerd culture, Big Bang Theory merely exploits it for the sitcom audience.

Of course Ryan's argument goes out the window when he defended the Green Lantern movie again.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby LiQuid » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 5:55pm

Guillermo_DudeL wrote:I'm on Ryan's side on The Big Bang Theory. To me it's as bad Blaxsploitation or Tyler Perry films (at worst a minstrel show) where it relies on the focus of characters that ,while not necessarily negative stereotypes, still are stereotypes that create a limited perception of what nerds are like, that's why the majority of Big Bang Theory fans are not regular nerds but rather people amused at the concept of nerds. Big Bang Theory also makes very "safe" and "easy" nerd references. Sure not everyone is an expert on DC Comics and Star Trek but those are still in the pop cultural mainstream because of years of successful movies and television shows. You will never see The Big Bang Theory make references to Will Eisner, Twin Peaks, MST3K, Don Bluth, Devo, or other "nerdy" nerd things. And there is a different mentality between Community and Big Bang Theory in how it handles nerd references. Community uses conventions and tropes from different movies and shows because it explores how they affect storytelling and this is highlighted with the meta character Abed, an aspiring filmmaker. Big Bang Theory stops whatever standard sitcom plot it is currently involved in in order to pander for a bit with some easy references in a pathetic attempt to say to nerds "Hey we're just like you!" Community is an intellectual exploration of nerd culture, Big Bang Theory merely exploits it for the sitcom audience.

Woah! Hey you wanna go someplace and get gaymarried?!
Guillermo_DudeL wrote:Of course Ryan's argument goes out the window when he defended the Green Lantern movie again.

Wait, never mind!
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby kenzo » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 6:27pm

Guillermo_DudeL wrote:I'm on Ryan's side on The Big Bang Theory. To me it's as bad Blaxsploitation or Tyler Perry films (at worst a minstrel show) where it relies on the focus of characters that ,while not necessarily negative stereotypes, still are stereotypes that create a limited perception of what nerds are like, that's why the majority of Big Bang Theory fans are not regular nerds but rather people amused at the concept of nerds. Big Bang Theory also makes very "safe" and "easy" nerd references. Sure not everyone is an expert on DC Comics and Star Trek but those are still in the pop cultural mainstream because of years of successful movies and television shows. You will never see The Big Bang Theory make references to Will Eisner, Twin Peaks, MST3K, Don Bluth, Devo, or other "nerdy" nerd things. And there is a different mentality between Community and Big Bang Theory in how it handles nerd references. Community uses conventions and tropes from different movies and shows because it explores how they affect storytelling and this is highlighted with the meta character Abed, an aspiring filmmaker. Big Bang Theory stops whatever standard sitcom plot it is currently involved in in order to pander for a bit with some easy references in a pathetic attempt to say to nerds "Hey we're just like you!" Community is an intellectual exploration of nerd culture, Big Bang Theory merely exploits it for the sitcom audience.

Of course Ryan's argument goes out the window when he defended the Green Lantern movie again.
Guillermo_DudeL wrote:To me it's as bad Blaxsploitation or Tyler Perry films (at worst a minstrel show) where it relies on the focus of characters that ,while not necessarily negative stereotypes, still are stereotypes that create a limited perception of what nerds are like, that's why the majority of Big Bang Theory fans are not regular nerds but rather people amused at the concept of nerds. Big Bang Theory also makes very "safe" and "easy" nerd references.

Guillermo_DudeL wrote:To me it's as bad Blaxsploitation or Tyler Perry films
Guillermo_DudeL wrote:To me it's as bad (as) Blaxsploitation


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

In no way is it as bad.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby LiQuid » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 6:34pm

Way to spend a whole lot of time saying nothing. How exactly do you figure it isn't?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby Guillermo_DudeL » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 6:40pm

I'm not saying the suffering of nerds is as bad as the historical suffering of Blacks. I'm just making a comparison that clearly states how a popular representation of a culture can be negative. Blaxsploitation created a popular image of Black culture that wasn't completely positive and Big Bang Theory is doing something similar with nerd culture.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby LiQuid » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 6:43pm

I'm pretty sure kenzo just sees the word "black" and immediately plays the race card, regardless of whether or not it makes any damn sense, or that he's not black.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby kenzo » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 6:46pm

Pandering to and/or exploiting an oppressed ethnic group in the 70s is on a completely different level from pandering to and/or exploiting nerds in the 21st Century. Sorry.

Fake edit:
Guillermo_DudeL wrote:I'm not saying the suffering of nerds is as bad as the historical suffering of Blacks. I'm just making a comparison that clearly states how a popular representation of a culture can be negative. Blaxsploitation created a popular image of Black culture that wasn't completely positive and Big Bang Theory is doing something similar with nerd culture.
Guillermo_DudeL wrote:To me it's as bad (as) Blaxsploitation


I know what you were going for - you were attempting to draw a comparison. That's why I :lol: 'd instead of :x 'd. But your vague language and absolutist/hyperbolic tones made for a poorly written and easily misconstrued remark.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby kenzo » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 6:47pm

LiQuid wrote:I'm pretty sure kenzo just sees the word "black" and immediately plays the race card, regardless of whether or not it makes any damn sense, or that he's not black.
I'm pretty sure LiQuid sees the word "black" and thinks:
Image
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby LiQuid » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 6:53pm

kenzo wrote:Pandering to and/or exploiting an oppressed ethnic group in the 70s is on a completely different level from pandering to and/or exploiting nerds in the 21st Century. Sorry.

Do you consider blaxploitation films evil or bad? It's not like blackface where it was designed to be insulting to an entire race of people. Blaxploitation films and Tyler Perry films are full of stereotypes both designed to appeal to their target demographics and deconstruct cultural barriers. They aren't simply designed to say "haha, let's all laugh at darkie!" whereas Big Bang Theory is clearly meant to be derisive towards nerds. That makes it actually worse in my mind. So thanks for that, kenzo. Big Bang Theory is worse than Blaxploitation.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby LiQuid » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 6:55pm

So hey, on a topic that isn't completely fucking retarded. I mentioned this in the comic forum but does anybody know of an easier, cheaper way to read the old Starman series than via the big, hardcover omnibuses currently available? Basically where can I get trades? The omnibuses are heck of expensive. I don't want to drop forty bucks on a book before I even know if I like it. Thanks.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby LiQuid » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 6:57pm

kenzo wrote:
LiQuid wrote:I'm pretty sure kenzo just sees the word "black" and immediately plays the race card, regardless of whether or not it makes any damn sense, or that he's not black.
I'm pretty sure LiQuid sees the word "black" and thinks:
Image

Literally made me :lol:
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby Guillermo_DudeL » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 7:02pm

I'm writing a post on an internet forum, you can't expect me to be 100% thorough. You're just being nit-picky.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby kenzo » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 7:08pm

LiQuid wrote:Do you consider blaxploitation films evil or bad? It's not like blackface where it was designed to be insulting to an entire race of people.
No, groups like the NAACP didn't call for an end to the genre because they reinforced and perpetuated harmful stereotypes that white people had about black people at all. :roll:

Guillermo_DudeL wrote:I'm writing a post on an internet forum, you can't expect me to be 100% thorough. You're just being nitpicky.
Pretty obviously, which again is why I went :lol: instead of :x
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby LiQuid » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 7:36pm

kenzo wrote:
LiQuid wrote:Do you consider blaxploitation films evil or bad? It's not like blackface where it was designed to be insulting to an entire race of people.
No, groups like the NAACP didn't call for an end to the genre because they reinforced and perpetuated harmful stereotypes that white people had about black people at all. :roll:

Hey, I can read Wikipedia too! How fun! I'm not gonna keep speaking with authority on this and neither should you because neither of us are fucking black nor do we seem to have any real investment in the discussion, but I imagine if there was a civil rights group that represented nerds they would want to put an end of Big Bang Theory as well for perpetuating negative stereotypes in much the same way blaxploitation did.

Or you know, we can just put a stop to everything that some snooty activist group calls for an end of. Like Rock and Roll music, comic books, rated R movies, video games, etc. Who needs any of that junk.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby kenzo » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 8:31pm

LiQuid wrote:I'm not gonna keep speaking with authority on this and neither should you because neither of us are fucking black nor do we seem to have any real investment in the discussion
I have to be black to be able to say with authority that stereotyping is bad? How about segregation? Or slavery even? I'm not black, but I do belong to an ethnic minority. And growing up surrounded in the legacy of segregation and persecution, I don't have any real investment in civil rights or its legacy? It's snooty or unreasonable to say that, "OK, these two situations resemble one another, but one is hardly 'as bad' as the other"? I didn't realize that all this time when I was reading books, following lectures, and doing research at school on specifically these kinds of topics, I was actually reading Wikipedia! Amazing!

I agree, this whole conversation is silly, but it's kind of ridiculous that you're telling me what I can and cannot speak to.

As for Big Bang Theory's 'exploitation' of 'negative stereotypes,' yeah. It kind of does that. But it's not completely dishonest - I know a lot of nerds that could walk onto the show and feel right at home. And as for it being 'negative', it's hardly the same thing as the kinds of negative stereotypes that blaxploitation deals with. For one thing, the ramifications are on a completely different level. I've never seen a nerd turned away from applying for a loan just because they were a nerd, or a nerd pulled over on the side of the road for simply being a nerd, or a nerd get passed over for a job/promotion because they were a nerd.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby kenzo » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 9:02pm

And let's be real - regardless of the 'negative' nature of certain stereotypes, being a nerd isn't the same thing it was in the 80s. Shit, in my high school, the nerds were the cool kids that ran the entire place. My circle of friends from back then are on average pulling in bank, hangin' out at posh night clubs, and all while rockin' stupid nerd-tats or Green Lantern shirts. Everyone lost their shit a few months back because Steve Jobs - a nerd-messiah - died. Being a nerd is hardly the social death-sentence it used to be, and I'd argue the exact opposite. Everyone has computers, everyone has smartphones, everyone plays video games in some form, everyone goes to see superhero films. People who watch the show don't watch it because of some massive anti-nerd conspiracy and they're not like, "Yuck, let's laugh at some nerds today." They watch it because they think it's funny, because they have bad tastes, and maybe even because they identify with some of the characters. Hate Big Bang Theory because it's a bad show with bad writing and isn't funny - not out of some misguided and false feeling of victimization and persecution. Nobody looks at bad sitcoms like There's Something About Raymond and cry, "This is reinforcing negative stereotypes about nuclear families!" As a collective group, us nerds need to get over our persecution-complex.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby LiQuid » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 9:13pm

You're overvaluing the ramifications of blaxploitation on black culture and civil rights in general to try and prove a point and it's kind of gross. Sounds like you're saying that because black people were oppressed that stereotyping and parodying them in film is evil. News flash, my man (black slang!), many blaxploitation producers and directors were black!!! I'll tell you who aren't nerds though. The people producing Big Bang Theory.

How did you feel about Chappelle's Show? A show that broke all kinds of ground on racial stereotyping for the sake of comedy. Sure it turns out to be a white-boy, frat house favorite but it still pulled the curtain away from a lot of racially charged issues and was enjoyed by people of all races.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby Guillermo_DudeL » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 9:23pm



Other than that I already made my point. Bored now.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby Roadie Brock » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 9:57pm

Guillermo_DudeL wrote:Of course Ryan's argument goes out the window when he defended the Green Lantern movie again.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

This made your whole post awesome!

And then I saw where this thread went. Down the toilet!
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby LiQuid » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 10:02pm

Kenzo started it. I'm at least trying to talk about motherfucking comics, as usual.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby Roadie Brock » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 10:12pm

LiQuid wrote:Kenzo started it. I'm at least trying to talk about motherfucking comics, as usual.


Why do I feel like I'm breaking up siblings who are always fighting right now?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby Guillermo_DudeL » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 10:13pm

So uh, anyone else wished the Flex Mentallo collection came out this year so that they could get it for Christmas?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby Roadie Brock » Nov 29th, 2011 @ 10:28pm

Guillermo_DudeL wrote:So uh, anyone else wished the Flex Mentallo collection came out this year so that they could get it for Christmas?


Higgins would be on that in a heartbeat!
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby kenzo » Nov 30th, 2011 @ 12:31am

LiQuid wrote:You're overvaluing the ramifications of blaxploitation on black culture and civil rights in general to try and prove a point and it's kind of gross. Sounds like you're saying that because black people were oppressed that stereotyping and parodying them in film is evil.
Never said anything of the sort, just that the issues are complicated and a bit more urgent and meaningful than nerds being hypersensitive about how they and their hobbies are portrayed.

LiQuid wrote:How did you feel about Chappelle's Show? A show that broke all kinds of ground on racial stereotyping for the sake of comedy. Sure it turns out to be a white-boy, frat house favorite but it still pulled the curtain away from a lot of racially charged issues and was enjoyed by people of all races.
I've got mixed feelings, like I do with any humor that is overly reliant on racial-commentary. It was hilarious stuff, but Chappelle is on the record saying that part of why he quit was because he felt that instead of lamblasting/disarming harmful stereotypes, he was actually reinforcing them among lots of folks like the white-boy frat house crowd you spoke of.

Roadie Brock wrote:
LiQuid wrote:Kenzo started it. I'm at least trying to talk about motherfucking comics, as usual.
Why do I feel like I'm breaking up siblings who are always fighting right now?
I'd love to talk about comics, but apparently this episode is all about BBT, The Muppets, and the Daredevil film. :P
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby SerpentineZERO » Nov 30th, 2011 @ 12:38am

I don't know crap about the Shade, but i have some extra money so i guess i'll give it a shot. And when i have more money (and a job, probably) i'll probably get those hardcover Starman omnibuses.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby jinpei05 » Nov 30th, 2011 @ 11:10am

Wow, another thread that's gone straight to tangent hell, thanks to kenzo and LiQuid. Big surprise.

I won't argue that Big Bang Theory comes from sitcom stock, but what makes the difference is Jim Parson as Sheldon Cooper. He's definitely saved it from being typical sitcom drivel with excellent comedic timing and delivery. And if Higgins would actually bother to watch something other than the pilot and random clips, he might realize that.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy: Episode 34

Postby kenzo » Nov 30th, 2011 @ 11:21am

jinpei05 wrote:I won't argue that Big Bang Theory comes from sitcom stock, but what makes the difference is Jim Parson as Sheldon Cooper. He's definitely saved it from being typical sitcom drivel with excellent comedic timing and delivery. And if Higgins would actually bother to watch something other than the pilot and random clips, he might realize that.
I can't speak for Higgins obviously, but for me a show usually needs more than just one standout actor to be worth watching. A show is worthless if acting-prodigy-X is surrounded by mouth-breathers, bad on screen chemistry, and terrible writing.
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