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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby CrossXhunteR » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 2:35pm

Waiting for Kenzo's hate filled response and SynysterBear's not so thought out response.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby kenzo » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 2:48pm

No real hate; I'm pretty dispassionate about this entire thing. Just pointing out how stupid certain things are, because it's fun to poke holes in arguments (I know you now what's up, Mr. Agitator).

Dude basically admits that there was poor editorial judgment/oversight, but then pussies out and defends the nature of variant covers. "This isn't for you, this is for those nerds over there." Why isn't for them? This gets back at what I was saying before - why are you, as a business that ostensibly wants to make as much money as possible, actively excluding potential customers? "We didn't think people would get upset at this." Then your editors are doing a shit-job and you should think about getting more competent people to fill their place. "Variant covers don't represent the content of the book they're plastered on." Then why are they on the book to begin with? Why would you actively mislabel something? What purpose does that serve? (BTW - I fucking hate when comics have covers that have nothing to do with the content of the comic - at best it's negligent and stupid, at worst it's false advertising and criminal.)
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Master Higgins » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 2:49pm

Vyria wrote:You're calling a marginalized group entitled for feeling betrayed when a company has a book that appears to reach out to them, then does this? The vast majority of comics are grown men punching things marketed directly towards you, but you roll your eyes and deride the big two's attempts to market to other demographics. I feel like you're part of the group that feels entitled here. You're right though, these are corporate owned characters, and Marvel is here to sell books. Maybe that's why they should care about how they market to women and treat female characters. By some metrics, women are almost half of the comic market these days, and for Marvel or DC to do things to turn away that demographic is bad business.


If the comic was about Spider-Woman sticking her ass out for 20 pages in every issue, I'd be first in line saying this is a stupid idea. My entitled comment is about a small group of people that want comics to be what they want, instead of what the creators or company wants. They produce the content, the audience should not dictate what an artist does. It reminds me of this absolute idiotic story about people being mad at George RR Martin for not doing what a small faction of his readers want.

Also, 46% of comic book fans =/= 46% of comic book readers =/= 46% of comic book sales. Women are still a small minority of the comic book market (people who purchase American single issues and graphic novels). I'm not saying there shouldn't be more comics for women, I'm not saying they shouldn't hire more female creators, I'm not saying they shouldn't market more to women...they absolutely should do all of those things and more...but removing art because some people do not approve of it sets a dangerous precedence that the consumers can vote with anything but their dollars. If you don't like the book, fine. Don't buy it. The amount of people who don't like that cover that would actually buy Spider-Woman #1 in any fashion is almost non-existent, and the amount that would buy that variant cover is exactly zero.

Vyria wrote:As for Land, he's capable artist when he's actually drawing. Nearly all his output since his early work has been nothing but tracing movie stills, porn, or other people's art. His swipe file is bigger than many people's portfolios and there are so many hard working and talented artists that deserve work over someone that lazy and dishonest.


All artists have reference files, I don't understand the complaint about Land. In fact, if anything, he might need more reference, as he often goes back to the same faces. Find me an artist that doesn't use reference all the time, and I'll show you a terrible artist.

Vyria wrote:Comparing those two covers is absurd. Yes, Spider-Man has sculpted butt cheeks, but if you can't tell the difference between a male power fantasy and an sexual objectification I don't know what to say. The Spider-Man cover has him with rippling muscles and menacing some criminals he has defeated, it's a similar view, but it's framed closer to even with the viewer with Spider-Man rising above. The Spider Woman cover is framed with the viewer towering above Spider-Woman like she's crawling towards them submissively or seductively. I still think the art is horrid on just a technical basis and I think Manara's quote is him owning up to the fact it may not be his best piece.


This is an "eye of the beholder' problem. I see literally no difference between the two. They're in almost exactly the same pose. But we all know that men in comics are never sexualized.

Ahem.

Image

Vyria wrote:At any rate, a cheesecake cover isn't the issue. Manara himself isn't the issue. Sexy art isn't a problem. There's a place for cheesecake and pornographic comics and all of that. Adam Hughes and Frank Cho are two of my favorite artists and they deserve all the work they get. The problem is Marvel's boneheaded decision on asking Manara to do a cover for this book at this time. Hopeless has said the book isn't supposed to feature a sexualized version of Spider Woman and doing the Manara variant feels like a betrayal to readers who were excited about a book that might be something they enjoy. The only way I can think to convey the issue here is, what if every male comic character were Dick Grayson? What if male characters couldn't show up in a book without being shirtless down to that cut v shape near the crotch? What if the only character beats revolved around their sexual encounters with a lady character? Every book featuring a dude? Would you not feel objectified? Would you not get tired of sitting through sweaty shirtless dudes and buttshots? Wouldn't you want a book to feature a dude just punching someone without sitting through pages about their boners? I mean, Toby might be happy, but I imagine everyone else might want a little variation. Dick is a great character, but sometimes it's nice to have books in different styles or see characters express other facets of their personalities.


I totally get it, and I actually agree. Not every shot of every character has to be some sexual pose, but I think more often than not, there's a jump to assume it's intentionally sexual. I was looking on my wall for covers I thought could be seen a sexual that I didn't think were, and here's a few:

Batman Eternal #11 (link because it's a pic image)

Thor/Loki #1/#2 split cover (another big pic)

Secret Origins #4
Image

I'm curious from a perspective of someone who doesn't like the Spider-Woman cover, what about these? Harley is tough, because the costume itself (like Angela, Power Girl, and others) is clearly skin-heavy. But is the pose more important? Spider-Woman is completely covered in that cover. Her costume is no different than Black Widow, Catwoman, Capt Marvel, or other very positive female super-heroes.

The Batman Eternal cover is the one I'm most curious about. I can dig around, but I've seen a number of Spider-Man and Nightwing shots that have a similar feel, but is it because it's a woman that it's more sexual? I'm curious, because I don't have an answer.

Vyria wrote:Women aren't demanding books where people run around chopping off wieners. They just want superhero books that speak to them and are relevant to them and it's really frustrating to see such backlash towards their dissatisfaction with the status quo.


It might be hard to believe, but I want this, as well. As both a reader and a retailer, I'd love to see more books that "speak" to women; Ms Marvel has been successful, Gotham Academy looks to be good, the new Batgirl will hopefully surprise me and be very popular. I just get uncomfortable when people try and dictate their ideals to an artist to make them change. You want to expand the market, not remove pieces of it. Lady Death and Crossed and apple-shaped-ass Spider-Woman can sit side by side with Ms Marvel and hipster Batgirl, and everyone gets what they want.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby CrossXhunteR » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 2:58pm

Higgins, how many variant covers do you keep on the wall to sell, instead of the main cover, or even with it?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby CrossXhunteR » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 3:06pm

kenzo wrote: "Variant covers don't represent the content of the book they're plastered on." Then why are they on the book to begin with? Why would you actively mislabel something?

They commissioned Manara for a piece of art and sat on it for months. If they weren't going to use it on a variant cover, when do you expect them to use it? They are not going to just publish a piece of art and sell it by itself.
Plus, all covers misrepresent the interior of all comics.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Master Higgins » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 3:08pm

kenzo wrote:Dude basically admits that there was poor editorial judgment/oversight, but then pussies out and defends the nature of variant covers. "This isn't for you, this is for those nerds over there." Why isn't for them? This gets back at what I was saying before - why are you, as a business that ostensibly wants to make as much money as possible, actively excluding potential customers?


Well, there's the rub. The paying audience for Marvel comics is mostly male. Any "this is for women" talk kills a book, I see it happen every month. Books with female leads sell terribly, unless it's a legacy character (Batgirl), an exceptional creative team (Wonder Woman) or a character that hits that perfect note with fandom (Harley Quinn). You notice a lack of Marvel characters listed there, as Marvel has been notably terrible with female characters through it's history. The female fandom is relatively new, as most die-hard male Marvel fans don't touch their female-lead books. They're making some great grounds recently, but the sales just aren't there for most of them.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicss ... 14-07.html

Outside Harley, Storm #1 is the first female-lead book at #47. That number will plummet in coming months, as #1s are fronted with a bunch of variant covers to goose sales. Wonder Woman and Batgirl at #77 and #79, X-Men (all female team, but still keeps the "Man" in the name) at #83, "What Ms Marvel's rare 6th printing means for diversity in comics...but we're just not going to mention current issue sales" comes in at #86, and every other book is sub-top 100, or what we call in the business, cancellation territory.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Master Higgins » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 3:09pm

CrossXhunteR wrote:Higgins, how many variant covers do you keep on the wall to sell, instead of the main cover, or even with it?


The Manara variants are 1:100, meaning you get 1 for every 100 copies you buy. Those would go straight on eBay, just like these ones did!

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... ld=1&rt=nc

I'll keep variants on the shelf if I can, but normally we just get main covers.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby SynysterBear » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 3:53pm

Master Higgins wrote:
kenzo wrote:Dude basically admits that there was poor editorial judgment/oversight, but then pussies out and defends the nature of variant covers. "This isn't for you, this is for those nerds over there." Why isn't for them? This gets back at what I was saying before - why are you, as a business that ostensibly wants to make as much money as possible, actively excluding potential customers?


Well, there's the rub. The paying audience for Marvel comics is mostly male. Any "this is for women" talk kills a book, I see it happen every month. Books with female leads sell terribly, unless it's a legacy character (Batgirl), an exceptional creative team (Wonder Woman) or a character that hits that perfect note with fandom (Harley Quinn). You notice a lack of Marvel characters listed there, as Marvel has been notably terrible with female characters through it's history. The female fandom is relatively new, as most die-hard male Marvel fans don't touch their female-lead books. They're making some great grounds recently, but the sales just aren't there for most of them.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicss ... 14-07.html

Outside Harley, Storm #1 is the first female-lead book at #47. That number will plummet in coming months, as #1s are fronted with a bunch of variant covers to goose sales. Wonder Woman and Batgirl at #77 and #79, X-Men (all female team, but still keeps the "Man" in the name) at #83, "What Ms Marvel's rare 6th printing means for diversity in comics...but we're just not going to mention current issue sales" comes in at #86, and every other book is sub-top 100, or what we call in the business, cancellation territory.


Thank you for backing me up on my point that I made earlier in the thread Higgins. If something doesn't sell then what is the point in selling it. It is simple, and fucking hell some of you guys just don't get it, Supply and Demand.


Most of the time I would sit back and let this whole thing roll on by but fucking christ not everything a gender issue, sometimes it is just a 'sensitivity' issue. This is the crap that makes my blood boil. I feel like whatever I say won't make a difference to anyone but I don't like anyone trying to tape my mouth shut or handcuff me.



As I said earlier no one on the internet would give an iota of a shit about this VARIANT 1:100 cover if it was drawn by a woman, but its a guy with a penis whose straight so....SEXIST.

Get more female writers, artists etc, get younger writers etc etc. Fucking great, give me 50 more Gail Simone's, Sara Pichelli and Fiona Staples fuck yeah. Make all the comics sell more and more. Get a more diverse cast of characters. Make them every colour, creed and sexuality under the sun.

But when something doesn't sell, don't come back to your loyal readers the ones who go to all the comic book websites, read all the article, send web traffic through the roof, the ones who bought the comic because they want to support what you are doing and call them Misogynistic, Sexist, Homophobic, Transphobic or whatever is the buzzword of the week. Just look what has happened in the Video Games world.

Ask why you didn't sell that book was it , in their opinion, a bad writer, a bad artist etc...


Look at the new Teen Titans book it has two very different main female characters with a green dude, a dark skinned gay dude and Red Robin, and guess what... it is fantastically drawn and the writing is good and in only two issues has sent up a great Arc. Do I care if the dude is gay and there are girls in it? Fuck no. DC has found something that works very well imo. It is trying to getting into internet culture with their use of memes and 'virality'.







On an ending note fuck 'Vyria' for White Knighting.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Master Higgins » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 4:19pm

I'm happy with them selling the books, but we do see these female-fronts books rarely last.

I'll debate facts with people over subjects I know well, but personal opinion is always that--personal. I don't care if people don't want to read the books or support the companies, but when they're doing something so minor, I don't see the need for the controversy. If Marvel put out a book of all the X-Ladies naked having rape-orgies, than yes, I might not approve (despite the fact that I'm sure that would be the #1 selling book of the year). Otherwise, I find it pretty a pretty minor problem. But everyone's got the right to not like whatever it is they don't like. Most often these days, I find myself just not caring about the outrage-du jour, as long as people aren't getting actually hurt. Ferguson, yes; Spider-Woman's ass, no.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Vyria » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 4:34pm

sorry the lack of quotes in these break downs, I'm my phone Dragon con.

Alonso's apology could have been more sympathetic to the people who this angered, but has the correct response moving forward in better curating where stuff like Manara's variants show up. Once again, the complaint is not that the Manara art exists, it's that they used it in an inappropriate place.


As for demographics, I still don't know why insist women are a small portion of comics and graphic novel sales. Women represent a small part of the superhero market, but theyrepresent a massive portion of the audience for non-cape books and manga. Women love the sequential arts just as much as men. It's Marvel and DCs failure in marketing and volume that their women led books fail. Most comics have decent number ones and quietly taper off into cancellation. Maybe if more than one in fifty books had female leads they'd find nite with staying power.

Land is indefensible. I know tons of artists and they all use references to varying degrees. Land doesn't reference, he traces. You can overlay multiple pieces and they are identical, not just similar. That's bad enough without him using the same O-face picture for everything from dialogue to pained scream.

I'm sorry your don't have the ability to discern objectified vs power fantasy, but the difference is there and not subtle. I didn't say men in comics were never sexualized, but it happens seldomly. Things like the Marvel films and especially Arrow do a great job of providing imagery that does blur the line to give something for everyone. Still even in sexualized male imagery they still rarely read as submissive or available. They are all the ones in charge, not an object to be taken, but a tower of muscles to aspire towards our submit to. The only notable exceptions to this are Nightwing and very rarely Batman.

The Batman Eternal cover is insanely sexualized. Classic bobs and butt contortion. Sexualized s&m violence in choking and hair pulling. Legs engaged with hips and breasts pressed together. Batgirl's fingers reaching towards Scorpiana's lips, their position in a very obvious v. The split cover is total cheesecake character design, but but not otherwise sexual. The Harley cover is especially restrained and desexualized for the costume she wears.

Also, I think it was CrossXhunter that said Manara didn't even think about the cover that hard? I literally laughed out loud. A comic artist's entire job is to think about the arty they are producing. Spider-Woman didn't just magically show up on that page because he put a pen to paper. Manara planned that pose, that perspective. Errors happened in the execution of that plan (hair making her head look disembodied, that janky face) but he knew what wanted that cover. And that's fine, but if Marvel just had this sitting around, they should have probably sat on that cover a while longer and used it for some kind of event she was in, not this book (Variant or no). Babs Tarr can draw some smoking hot pinups, but she and DC knew that wasn't what the new Batgirl was supposed be about.

Also lol at SynysterBear getting mad for me coming in and defending the progressive view. Deal with it, voices like mine are just getting louder and these conversations are going to keep happening until old school boys club viewpoints go away.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby SynysterBear » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 5:04pm

Vyria wrote:Also lol at Synyster Bear getting mad for me coming in and defending the progressive view. Deal with it, voices like mine are just getting louder and these conversations are going to keep happening until old school boys club viewpoints go away.


Progressive does not equal 'this only happens to women only.' You want to be progressive? Involve both sides in your 'discussion'.
You come in and act like everything anyone has ever done was to the determent to you and those you support.

Higgins shows you how men are over sexualised and you just turn it into something that favours your argument.

You are just deluded. The sooner you see beyond your own nose the better.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Vyria » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 5:55pm

Get back to me when men face an age old and society wide epidemic of being sexualized in a way that deprives them of agency and personhood.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby CrossXhunteR » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 6:12pm

Vyria wrote:Also, I think it was CrossXhunter that said Manara didn't even think about the cover that hard?

Find me where I might have said this.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby CrossXhunteR » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 6:14pm

So why is being sexualized bad?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby meDotJS » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 6:14pm

CrossXhunteR wrote:
Vyria wrote:Also, I think it was CrossXhunter that said Manara didn't even think about the cover that hard?

Find me where I might have said this.

I think he was mistaking you for me because I said that.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Vyria » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 6:25pm

CrossXhunteR wrote:So why is being sexualized bad?

It's not. It's bad when being sexualized in a way that dehumanizes a person is the predominant way an entire gender appears in media.

Sorry for misattributing responses.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby CrossXhunteR » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 6:29pm

How does being sexualized dehumanize them though?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby LiQuid » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 6:33pm

Vyria wrote:Get back to me when men face an age old and society wide epidemic of being sexualized in a way that deprives them of agency and personhood.

This is a bit melodramatic. Remember where I was talking about comic books being designed to titillate teen boys? This entire argument is like saying they should stop having pretty ladies in Playboy. You should be glad that "boys" comics creators are even trying to appeal to the other half of the population at all.

What if I, being a person that has said he likes these female targeted comics, also like Manara's smutty art? Why should I not have the option to get both because it offends your sensibilities? The regular cover exists. It's likely all 99% of the people that will buy this comic will ever even see. Why is the existence of one rare variant so offensive to so many people? There's no justification for it other than heavy handed censure.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby CrossXhunteR » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 6:37pm

LiQuid wrote:
Vyria wrote:Get back to me when men face an age old and society wide epidemic of being sexualized in a way that deprives them of agency and personhood.

OPPRESSION
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Konanda » Aug 29th, 2014 @ 8:53pm

Vyria wrote:sorry the lack of quotes in these break downs, I'm my phone Dragon con
.



Why are you writing gigantic arguments to random internet assholes while you are at a con? Its a time to go have fun, maybe check out some panels, hang with friends you don't see too often, cosplay a character you like, stand in a line for someone's autograph, buy some nerdy shit, etc. At least that's what me and my friends do at them.

Also how is Dragon Con debating on maybe going there instead of Fan Expo next year (they take place same weekend), since Dragon Con is roughly half the size thought it might feel somewhat less commercialized then Fan Expo feels lately.


Also off topic but Stan Lee is a hilarious panelist (just got back from seeing his Q&A). Also was surprised that a five year old kid managed to ask one of the most original/never been asked question (in Stan's words) of "didya ever think of making Spiderman shoot webs from his butt?"
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Vyria » Aug 30th, 2014 @ 11:23am

I'm posting from Dragon Con because sometimes you have down time like long ass lintass

In a vacuum, sexual imagery doesn't automatically dehumanize people. It's when sexual imagery is the only way a group of people sees themselves represented. It systematically reinforced the idea that women exist only to be sex objects to be lusted after or creinforced. Outside of that female characters tend to have reduced agency, existing only in their relationship to the male character. When they do have agency, it's still eroticised. If your kink is sexualized violence, looking at girl on girl catfighting when you want get off is fine catfighting. When 9 out of 10 female hero with female villain interactions in comics are girl on girl catfights, it's a problem.

At any rate we're veering from what was discussed in the podcast to general feminism stuff. If you want to keep talking about this err can make a feminism and pop culture thread must of you will subsequently ignore.

As for DRAGONCON:

It's my favorite con and I've been going for many, many years. If you like drinking, parties, and more amazing cosplay than you can comprehend, definitively come. There is almost zero comics stuff though. Little programming and some decent comics guests, but not many. The dealers area is gigantic and contains maybe two comics vendors. Comparing it to SDCC, we don't have all the companies with the crazy exclusives, but we do have the assholes reselling them at markup. We usually have maybe two or three A list celebrities who aren't doing anything (Patrick Stewart, Karl Urban this year) and a solid roster of B list and lower (cast of Arrow and True Blood, secondary character dwarves from the Hobbit). It's amazingly fun and there's tons of panels, tabletop gaming, and access to celebrities from nerd shows, but I emphasize the real draw is drinking, meeting people, and cosplay. It's smaller than Fan Expo, but it's still like 60,000 nerds sprawling through downtown Atlanta. The volunteer staff ensures that air of authenticity and mild incompetence. It's different from most big cons in that it sprawls through multiple connected hotels instead of a big convention hall.

If anyone wants an actual comic convention in the south east, come to Heroes Con which is amazing in its own right for comics reasons. That's in spring though.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby comicsanddakine » Aug 31st, 2014 @ 9:51am

CrossXhunteR wrote:How does being sexualized dehumanize them though?

The only reason I read these forums are Kenzo, Liq, and Xhunter. To give some of you background-- I have worked in Marketing for many years-- 4 of which at PlayStation. If you didn't incorporate SEX in promotions, ads, or everything else--you were lost.

Many hardcore gamers can say Nintendo is the greatest, but their marketshare always attributed to a lack of playing ball when it came to sexy ad campaigns that Sony and Microsoft ran to perfection. Comics has a very similar but aging demographic that Marvel and DC know how to sell to. Spiderwoman is not Carol Danvers. There is only one way to sell a triple-agent(hydra/shield/sword), pheromone-manipulating, superheroine-- and that's by having her work the corner. Props to Marvel on the bait and switch as they knew damn well their main buyer of this book would be pervs like me. Oh hai Arachne!!

If comics really mattered to women, marketing would adapt to the consumer. How many uber-sexy ads do you see run by Bloomingdales, Louis Vutton, or Nordstrom? Zero. Put your money where your mouth (tumbler) is ladies!! Until then, this Anaconda don't want none.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby comicsanddakine » Aug 31st, 2014 @ 9:56am

LiQuid wrote:
Vyria wrote:Finally, if I ever hear Omar call anyone a "triflin ass ho" or refer to women as bitches ever again, I'm done with the podcast. Next time there's a gender issue in comics news, just admit you guys can't talk about it in any kind of constructive way and move on.

Image

Hahaha!!!
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby CrossXhunteR » Aug 31st, 2014 @ 11:11am

Handled in about the most Omar way possible. Can't wait to see the response to this.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby ShadowSot » Aug 31st, 2014 @ 5:34pm

Looking at it, I see a spider person doing a spider person crawl.
Similar to how if I see a picture of someone doing yoga, I'd see a yoga pose.
Sure, she looks naked but so does about every super hero character ever.
Frankly, they could have done worse. One of her powers is to make men horny, they could have very easily used a much more suggestive and sensuous pose.
The friends of mine who are complaining about this on FB, have no clue about the character or know about the other covers he's done.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Vyria » Sep 2nd, 2014 @ 9:05am

comicsanddakine wrote:
CrossXhunteR wrote:How does being sexualized dehumanize them though?

The only reason I read these forums are Kenzo, Liq, and Xhunter. To give some of you background-- I have worked in Marketing for many years-- 4 of which at PlayStation. If you didn't incorporate SEX in promotions, ads, or everything else--you were lost.

Many hardcore gamers can say Nintendo is the greatest, but their marketshare always attributed to a lack of playing ball when it came to sexy ad campaigns that Sony and Microsoft ran to perfection. Comics has a very similar but aging demographic that Marvel and DC know how to sell to. Spiderwoman is not Carol Danvers. There is only one way to sell a triple-agent(hydra/shield/sword), pheromone-manipulating, superheroine-- and that's by having her work the corner. Props to Marvel on the bait and switch as they knew damn well their main buyer of this book would be pervs like me. Oh hai Arachne!!

If comics really mattered to women, marketing would adapt to the consumer. How many uber-sexy ads do you see run by Bloomingdales, Louis Vutton, or Nordstrom? Zero. Put your money where your mouth (tumbler) is ladies!! Until then, this Anaconda don't want none.

You're completely wrong about Nintendo though. Through the Wii/DS era, Nintendo had over 40% of the console marketshare. The times Nintendo has been in a bad place market wise has been directly attributable to idiotic hardware decisions not because they wouldn't have Zelda Beach Volleyball. Six of the top ten all time bestselling video games of all time are Nintendo titles. Twenty of the top forty are Nintendo and the other half are all multiplatform where the Nintendo games were all sold on Nintendo consoles. The only games on that list sold with sex are the GTA titles. What I'm saying is, maybe Nintendo shouldn't be your go to example for the failure of family friendly marketing.

For Spider-Woman, there's nothing about her that requires she be written as sexy, manipulative character. The character's origins in the Wolfman and Gruenwald era were about a scared and isolated woman because her pheromone powers induced fear and it wasn't until later they changed it to attract men. There are other ways to explore the character without them being about sleeping their way through enemy lines. The Azzarello/Chiang Wonder Woman and so far Ms Marvel are solid selling titles devoid of sexualized marketing and content. Captain Marvel was as well for a decently long run though is now slipping to the danger zone. Looking at a book that made it's sales exclusively on mostly nude cheesecake, Shanna the She-Devil #6 sold the same number of copies as Ms. Marvel #6. I'm not going to deny that sex is a useful marketing tool, because it can be. I'm saying that it's not a powerful enough one to justify eroticized art on every comic featuring a lady, especially when you have a market on your periphery that keeps getting turned away by it.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby CrossXhunteR » Sep 2nd, 2014 @ 9:28am

A little bit of victim blaming coming up.
Nobody is telling women not to buy and read this book, or any book. That is their own choice. Who cares if you are not being specifically catered to. That shouldn't stop you from being able to make your own purchases and make up your own decisions about the quality of a book.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby Vyria » Sep 2nd, 2014 @ 10:41am

CrossXhunteR wrote:A little bit of victim blaming coming up.
Nobody is telling women not to buy and read this book, or any book. That is their own choice. Who cares if you are not being specifically catered to. That shouldn't stop you from being able to make your own purchases and make up your own decisions about the quality of a book.

There's not victim blaming. Women have been vocal about wanting less of that kind of thing in comics and have expressed disappointment and reduced desire to buy the book over the variant.
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby CrossXhunteR » Sep 2nd, 2014 @ 11:02am

Who cares about comic books?
Who cares about a Marvel book?
Who cares about a Spider-Woman book?
Who cares about a variant cover to a book?
To me, these are super dedicated fans that would just be looking for something to get pissed off about. Why would there be disappointment about the book in general about this one small thing that nobody will even see? I don't care about the book and had no interest in buying it, and I feel like the people complaining are in the same boat. If this is what honestly stopped you from reading a book, why consume any media?
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Re: The Comic Conspiracy Podcast Discussion Thread

Postby kenzo » Sep 2nd, 2014 @ 2:18pm

comicsanddakine wrote:If comics really mattered to women, marketing would adapt to the consumer.
They should adapt but they refuse to. Comics very clearly matter to women, in terms of the entire culture surrounding super heroes and DC/Marvel/Indie shit. And hell, more women read shit like manga than men. The problem is, comics themselves aren't accessible to women - they're a bro-only zone with very few and impotent attempts to actually engage more than the 'traditional' comic audience. If Marvel/DC really gave a shit, they'd start making and marketing their shit to women in an earnest amount. None of this half-assed, one or two comics here or there turning traditional fap-bait characters into stuff that's for women but not really. They'd work to get hundreds of women on board making dozens of comics and getting them into women's hands via methods that appeal to women or are accessible. LCSes are (despite Higgins's very earnest attempts, yet local and thus limited attempts) not accessible. Telling a con audience that the New Spider Woman is going to target a female readership and then very clearly going in the other direction is not accessible.
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