Wherein we discuss Geekbox.net and individual episodes of our various podcasts.

The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby Rydog » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 12:38am

The new podcast is up -- grab it right here!
Ryan Scott
Editorial Director/Executive Producer, Geekbox.net
Rydog
User avatar
Hell Yeah!
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Mar 5th, 2009 @ 8:46pm
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby RetroBob » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 12:46am

Sweet, I'm a listenin' and a diggin'.
RetroBob
User avatar
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Apr 19th, 2009 @ 1:37am

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby SAHChandler » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 1:13am

Right now I'm at the discussion about Bioshock. I think it needs to be said, that while Bioshock was well done, one question you have to ask is "Who plays or even talks about it unless it is in a past tense at this point?" I think they are adding multiplayer because it not only gives them an excuse to put off some DLC and charge extra money (because the story of Bioshock is so fleshed out what COULD they add?) and not have the game stagnate as it has.
SAHChandler
User avatar
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Apr 25th, 2009 @ 1:08am

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby KindGalaxy » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 1:54am

Wow, guys and their ages. That was hilarious! :lol: Didn't know there were people still out there who cared about their age. Next week, let's talk about weight!
Never start a beef with a butcher
KindGalaxy
User avatar
 
Posts: 3753
Joined: Mar 7th, 2009 @ 11:01pm
Location: Australia

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby czartim » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 3:07am

Geekbox is the Quantum Leap of podcasts...
Thy Czar hath spoken. May his words inspire and thoughts provoke.
czartim
User avatar
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Mar 8th, 2009 @ 8:18pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby geronimo » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 6:24am

Higgins! How could you not know what Bioshock is! :cry:
geronimo
User avatar
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Mar 8th, 2009 @ 1:20pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby GiantAsianMan » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 9:39am

A Firefly explanation (and I'm going from memory, from the opening scene in Serenity; I didn't double check anything, so correct me if I'm wrong or missed anything):

In the future, there are only two word superpowers left on Earth, the US and China, hence the mixing of cultures. Everyone on Earth speaks both English and Chinese (and isn't necessarily Asian, just Asian influenced, thus explaining the lack of Asian characters). However, the world population become too much for Earth to sustain, so humans left to find a solar system to inhabit. When they found one, they terraformed all the planets so that they could sustain human life. Humanity then left Earth to colonize these new planets. It is assumed that at the time, each planet/colony was in charge of governing themselves. Then, the colonies near the center of the system (aka The Core, to colonies that had become more affluent and technologically advanced), joined together to form the Alliance. The Alliance then set out to bring all the other planets (aka The Outer Rim, the poorer frontier-like colonies) under their control/jurisdiction so that there was only one government for all people. This started the civil war between the Alliance and the Independents aka the Browncoats. Browncoats lost, the Alliance took over, but the Outer Rim still gets ignored because all governments ignore poor people ("one rule so everyone gets ignored or interfered with equally", as Mal put it in "The Train Job").

Okay, I hope that made some sense.
"The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." - Almost Famous
GiantAsianMan
User avatar
 
Posts: 1156
Joined: Mar 7th, 2009 @ 9:20pm
Location: West Chester, Ohio

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby LiQuid » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 10:54am

Running Time: 1h 1m 40s

picardwtf.jpg
LiQuid
User avatar
 
Posts: 28315
Joined: Mar 9th, 2009 @ 8:57pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby Master Higgins » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 12:40pm

geronimo wrote:Higgins! How could you not know what Bioshock is! :cry:


:lol:

I know what it is, but I never played it. If it's not about plumbers or Zeldas, I probably haven't played it ;)
--
Ryan Higgins
Comics Conspiracy
115-A E. Fremont Ave
Sunnyvale, CA 94087
http://www.comicsconspiracy.biz
Master Higgins
They go up
 
Posts: 5095
Joined: Mar 9th, 2009 @ 9:46pm
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby CasualPidgeon » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 3:32pm

GiantAsianMan wrote:A Firefly explanation (and I'm going from memory, from the opening scene in Serenity; I didn't double check anything, so correct me if I'm wrong or missed anything):

In the future, there are only two word superpowers left on Earth, the US and China, hence the mixing of cultures. Everyone on Earth speaks both English and Chinese (and isn't necessarily Asian, just Asian influenced, thus explaining the lack of Asian characters). However, the world population become too much for Earth to sustain, so humans left to find a solar system to inhabit. When they found one, they terraformed all the planets so that they could sustain human life. Humanity then left Earth to colonize these new planets. It is assumed that at the time, each planet/colony was in charge of governing themselves. Then, the colonies near the center of the system (aka The Core, to colonies that had become more affluent and technologically advanced), joined together to form the Alliance. The Alliance then set out to bring all the other planets (aka The Outer Rim, the poorer frontier-like colonies) under their control/jurisdiction so that there was only one government for all people. This started the civil war between the Alliance and the Independents aka the Browncoats. Browncoats lost, the Alliance took over, but the Outer Rim still gets ignored because all governments ignore poor people ("one rule so everyone gets ignored or interfered with equally", as Mal put it in "The Train Job").

Okay, I hope that made some sense.


I don't think it's aim was to represent the colonisation of America, more so a societal structure. If you think about it, the structure of the 'verse is pretty much the same as a city. The rich can afford to live a good lifestyle all in one concentrated area and as you get further out people start getting poorer and the style of life drops. And i think it was that the government terraformed enough government to fit the entire human population, but only the rich could afford to live in the centre (Alliance) and those who couldn't were left to fend for themselves.

p.s. Science fiction does not mean space aliens like in Babylon 5. That's a very steryotypical definition of the subject.
"It never goes smooth. How come, it never goes smooth!!"
CasualPidgeon
User avatar
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 22nd, 2009 @ 9:22pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby KindGalaxy » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 8:14pm

CasualPidgeon wrote:
GiantAsianMan wrote:A Firefly explanation (and I'm going from memory, from the opening scene in Serenity; I didn't double check anything, so correct me if I'm wrong or missed anything):

In the future, there are only two word superpowers left on Earth, the US and China, hence the mixing of cultures. Everyone on Earth speaks both English and Chinese (and isn't necessarily Asian, just Asian influenced, thus explaining the lack of Asian characters). However, the world population become too much for Earth to sustain, so humans left to find a solar system to inhabit. When they found one, they terraformed all the planets so that they could sustain human life. Humanity then left Earth to colonize these new planets. It is assumed that at the time, each planet/colony was in charge of governing themselves. Then, the colonies near the center of the system (aka The Core, to colonies that had become more affluent and technologically advanced), joined together to form the Alliance. The Alliance then set out to bring all the other planets (aka The Outer Rim, the poorer frontier-like colonies) under their control/jurisdiction so that there was only one government for all people. This started the civil war between the Alliance and the Independents aka the Browncoats. Browncoats lost, the Alliance took over, but the Outer Rim still gets ignored because all governments ignore poor people ("one rule so everyone gets ignored or interfered with equally", as Mal put it in "The Train Job").

Okay, I hope that made some sense.


I don't think it's aim was to represent the colonisation of America, more so a societal structure. If you think about it, the structure of the 'verse is pretty much the same as a city. The rich can afford to live a good lifestyle all in one concentrated area and as you get further out people start getting poorer and the style of life drops. And i think it was that the government terraformed enough government to fit the entire human population, but only the rich could afford to live in the centre (Alliance) and those who couldn't were left to fend for themselves.

p.s. Science fiction does not mean space aliens like in Babylon 5. That's a very steryotypical definition of the subject.


I was going to grab Firefly and Serenity after this podcast, but as I was looking for Lore on the universe there was minimal. I love my sci-fi to be filled out, that's why I love the BattleTech universe, and in regard to TV why I love Babylon 5. I guess you can't really do much in terms of universe building when your show is cut short. Ah well, shame.
Never start a beef with a butcher
KindGalaxy
User avatar
 
Posts: 3753
Joined: Mar 7th, 2009 @ 11:01pm
Location: Australia

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby Dr Mrs The Monarch » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 8:38pm

Firefly, all you need to know it has zombie space pirates....what more do you need?
Dr Mrs The Monarch
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Mar 10th, 2009 @ 9:44am

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby KindGalaxy » Apr 25th, 2009 @ 10:18pm

Dr Mrs The Monarch wrote:Firefly, all you need to know it has zombie space pirates....what more do you need?


Something like this,
http://www.classicbattletech.com/index.php?action=text&page=Master_Timeline

That's the timeline for my favourite sci-fi universe :) I can't have vague, "War, Unification, New Frontier". If I watch or read a sci-fi it needs to be detailed enough to make me believe it could happen.
Never start a beef with a butcher
KindGalaxy
User avatar
 
Posts: 3753
Joined: Mar 7th, 2009 @ 11:01pm
Location: Australia

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby mtcantor » Apr 26th, 2009 @ 12:10am

I contend that some of the best sci fi ever written does not have space aliens or blasters, or any of that Babylon 5/Star Trek/Space opera schtick.

E.G. Neuromancer, Snow Crash, Diamond Age, Mona Lisa Overdrive, most of the Phillip K. Dick stories, The Road, 1984, etc etc etc.

As for great (non space opera) sci fi movies: Bladerunner (admittedly androids, but no aliens or zappers), 2001: A Space Odyssey, Sunshine, etc.

There is a solid part of the genre which is human-specific, completely lacking in the space opera Star Wars (which is just fantasy with electricity) and Star Trek have popularized.

I suppose part of it is the difference between "hard" sci-fi (e.g. 2001) and space-opera sci-fi (e.g. Buck Rogers).

In any case, Firefly takes hard sci fi, science fiction based around science itself and softens it a bit, as well as giving us a colonial allegory, and an inherrant irony in its back story (i.e. what if the good guys lost?).

But then again, I think bashing the show by claiming that a detail of the back story is unbelievable is a bit petty and is actually masking a less explainable but still real aversion. It's OK for you not to like the show, and I'm sure its not just because you don't think the colonies were explained well enough. It's just not for you. I didn't like it much either. I much prefer the movie.
Currently Playing: Heavy Rain, Dragon Age: Origins, The Misadventures of Tron Bonne, Saints Row 2
Recently finished: Bioshock 2, Mass Effect 2,No More Heroes 2, Bayonetta, Darksiders
mtcantor
User avatar
 
Posts: 765
Joined: Mar 16th, 2009 @ 11:34pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby KindGalaxy » Apr 26th, 2009 @ 12:43am

mtcantor wrote:But then again, I think bashing the show by claiming that a detail of the back story is unbelievable is a bit petty and is actually masking a less explainable but still real aversion. It's OK for you not to like the show, and I'm sure its not just because you don't think the colonies were explained well enough. It's just not for you. I didn't like it much either. I much prefer the movie.


Well on the contrary actually, it's the only reason I find myself not wanting to get into it. I was an extreme follower of Farscape, B5, BSG, TNG, V the Miniseries (can't wait for the remake.), StarGate, Voyager, DS9, X-Files or even Dark Angel and honestly the fact that Firefly is hard sci-fi or in fantasy terms a low sci-fi setting makes it all the more appealing, I prefer the human story to the alien.
I guess the more reasoning issue is that it was not allowed to continue to expand beyond the single season and the movie; if it had I'm sure they would have had time to flesh out the world further.
(And BattleTech does not have any space aliens or blasters in their lore, I'm not someone who thinks sci-fi should be classed as sci-fi only if there are aliens and lasers).
It's also hard to get into a series knowing that the show will not be expanded upon, it'd be like watching Star Wars: Episode 4 and never seeing 5 or 6, or 1-3. If that was your only experience, and you never knew the 'real stuff' like Palpatine, like the relationship of Vader and Luke, or Leia then you're only getting a blink of a far greater story... although you are left never knowing the horror of midichlorians. It's like watching Kings right now, or the previous season of Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles; I didn't watch the second season purely because I could see them cancelling the show, same with Dollhouse. I love my stories to have a beginning, a middle and an end. Firefly seems like it was only given the chance to have a beginning, and Serenity was a short conclusion to the fiction.
I suppose I didn't explain myself well enough, I was purely commenting on the backstory because that is usually filled in as the story evolves, and Firefly had no chance to continue and thus explain the universe further, the basic knowledge I have of the lore does make it sound appealing, but knowing it'll never be expanded is the major stopping block.
Never start a beef with a butcher
KindGalaxy
User avatar
 
Posts: 3753
Joined: Mar 7th, 2009 @ 11:01pm
Location: Australia

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby mtcantor » Apr 26th, 2009 @ 9:38am

KindGalaxy wrote:...


I get that. Especially the part about not wanting to invest in something that never had the opportunity to expand. As such, I do reccomend you watch the movie (Serenity) as it is much more of a self-contained story (of course) with less emphasis on far reaching lore and more human/character drama. Its not really necessary to have seen the whole season to understand the movie, it explains everything well enough, and I bet you will actually have a good time.

In any case, I am having the same problem with Kings. I love that show, but the knowledge that 90% its never going to have a second season makes me not want to invest my time in it. But then again I am a sucker for biblically inspired alternate history sci fi.
Currently Playing: Heavy Rain, Dragon Age: Origins, The Misadventures of Tron Bonne, Saints Row 2
Recently finished: Bioshock 2, Mass Effect 2,No More Heroes 2, Bayonetta, Darksiders
mtcantor
User avatar
 
Posts: 765
Joined: Mar 16th, 2009 @ 11:34pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby Ender » Apr 26th, 2009 @ 1:33pm

This is not related to the discussion going on; be forewarned.

In response to Karen's description of Bioshock's marketing.. I actually didn't buy the game due to the type of marketing the game received. From what I saw, it wasn't going to be an awesome game. To me, it looked like just another big dumb action game with powers.

I have since borrowed the game from a friend and enjoy playing it so far, but haven't finished it yet.
Ender
User avatar
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Mar 13th, 2009 @ 5:00pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby exfate » Apr 26th, 2009 @ 4:05pm

Master Higgins, you are right about Firefly not making much sense. Essentially, Joss Whedon wanted to do space cowboys so he made up some weak justification. That being said, the justification for most things in sci-fi/fantasy is pretty weak. If it's cool, it doesn't really matter how solid the foundations on which the world is built are.

I have an issue with Firefly as well though, although it's different. I believe that the cancellation of the show caused it to become more popular than it otherwise would have. It is actually quite absurd how it has become regarded as the best sci-fi/fantasy show ever when it was only 14 episodes long. There is a definite effect of rose tinted glasses. Best show in 2002/2003? Perhaps. Best show ever? No basis in reality.
exfate
User avatar
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Apr 12th, 2009 @ 8:06pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby Sokkratez » Apr 26th, 2009 @ 9:08pm

Say "retarded" as much as you like. It's a perfectly fine word. I really want to know what mom-of-a-retarded kid blogger in San Fransisco made a stink about the word "retarded" sometime in late 2007, because that's when people started to get all haughty about its "misuse". It's the only explanation.
Sokkratez
User avatar
 
Posts: 600
Joined: Mar 7th, 2009 @ 9:22pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby slinkdickens » Apr 27th, 2009 @ 1:30am

People have explained it, but I'll shoot for the briefest answers to Master Higgins' questions about Firefly.

1. Why would the Alliance spend a lot of resources to terraform planets, and then leave them ungoverned?

The Alliance didn't terraform the planets. The terraforming happened first. The Alliance was a government that formed later. Not everyone liked the idea of the Alliance, thus the Unification War.

2. Whuttup with the frontier/wild-west theme?

The Rim planets were the frontier as they were the most recently terraformed. A conceit of the show is that people's motivation for moving out to the newly terraformed planets are much the same as colonists heading out to the Americas.

3. Why ride horses when you own a spaceship?

Low tech is often used because it's the most practical given the planet's urban structure - or lack thereof (why own a hovercraft if you have nowhere to fuel it?). Also, a low tech solution might be just as effective as a higher tech solution (a gun shooting cheap bullets costs a lot less than a laser with expensive batteries, and they'll both make a man bleed).
slinkdickens
 
Posts: 476
Joined: Apr 16th, 2009 @ 1:30pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby slinkdickens » Apr 27th, 2009 @ 1:47am

exfate wrote:I have an issue with Firefly as well though, although it's different. I believe that the cancellation of the show caused it to become more popular than it otherwise would have. It is actually quite absurd how it has become regarded as the best sci-fi/fantasy show ever when it was only 14 episodes long. There is a definite effect of rose tinted glasses. Best show in 2002/2003? Perhaps. Best show ever? No basis in reality.


There have been plenty of sci-fi shows that were canceled after one season and most have been totally forgotten. The idea that the cancellation of a show can make it more popular than staying on the air is beyond ridiculous.

BTW, the debate of what is the best sci-fi/fantasy show ever is unwinnable. It's nice to hear everyone's opinion though :D
slinkdickens
 
Posts: 476
Joined: Apr 16th, 2009 @ 1:30pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby Mr_eX » Apr 27th, 2009 @ 10:13am

So Master Higgins doesn't like Firefly, Street Fighter, doesn't know what Bioshock is and thinks playing games and reading comics after the age of 30 is something to be ashamed of? :?
Mr_eX
User avatar
Geekbox VIP
 
Posts: 15654
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009 @ 3:01pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby Master Higgins » Apr 27th, 2009 @ 1:07pm

Mr_eX wrote:So Master Higgins doesn't like Firefly, Street Fighter, doesn't know what Bioshock is and thinks playing games and reading comics after the age of 30 is something to be ashamed of? :?


Woah woah woah, lets address some of these...

I've now watched the first two DVDs of Firefly, and I'm finding I enjoy it. It won't go down as the best show evar!, but it's fun. I'll finish watching it.

I don't hate Street Fighter, I just don't really play it. I more make fun of SF and sigh whenever they talk about it because of Karen and Greg and Fitch and Ryan's dislike/apathy towards WoW.

I know what Bioshock is, I just never played it. It's not really my type of game; not enough plumbers, princesses.

And when did I say playing games and reading comics after the age of 30 is something to be ashamed of? I just don't want to be old, cause I damn well don't feel like I'm 30. :cry:
--
Ryan Higgins
Comics Conspiracy
115-A E. Fremont Ave
Sunnyvale, CA 94087
http://www.comicsconspiracy.biz
Master Higgins
They go up
 
Posts: 5095
Joined: Mar 9th, 2009 @ 9:46pm
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby slinkdickens » Apr 27th, 2009 @ 1:13pm

Master Higgins wrote:[snip]
And when did I say playing games and reading comics after the age of 30 is something to be ashamed of? I just don't want to be old, cause I damn well don't feel like I'm 30. :cry:


You should just start counting your age in hex. This year, I'm about to turn 20 (32 in decimal)!

Of course, there's that awkward period when you would be 1E (eee-teen or 30) and 1F (eff-teen or 31). For those years, you could say that you're twenty-ten and twenty-eleven.
slinkdickens
 
Posts: 476
Joined: Apr 16th, 2009 @ 1:30pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby Mr_eX » Apr 27th, 2009 @ 1:56pm

Master Higgins wrote:
Mr_eX wrote:So Master Higgins doesn't like Firefly, Street Fighter, doesn't know what Bioshock is and thinks playing games and reading comics after the age of 30 is something to be ashamed of? :?


Woah woah woah, lets address some of these...

I've now watched the first two DVDs of Firefly, and I'm finding I enjoy it. It won't go down as the best show evar!, but it's fun. I'll finish watching it.

I don't hate Street Fighter, I just don't really play it. I more make fun of SF and sigh whenever they talk about it because of Karen and Greg and Fitch and Ryan's dislike/apathy towards WoW.

I know what Bioshock is, I just never played it. It's not really my type of game; not enough plumbers, princesses.

And when did I say playing games and reading comics after the age of 30 is something to be ashamed of? I just don't want to be old, cause I damn well don't feel like I'm 30. :cry:


I remember watching the first few episodes of Firefly when they aired on Fox and I didn't like it much, it wasn't until I bought the DVD box set that I became a fan of the series. It's good to see you're coming around on it, I guess Rydog gave you some of the kool-aid. Don't forget to watch Serenity when you're done with Firefly, then Buffy and Angel and you'll be in the cult of Whedon.

Pipe Dream is in Bioshock, thats kind of a plumbing sim ;)

You should embrace your age, when there are kids playing on your lawn, go out and yell at them to stay off the grass while drinking prune juice and reading books with oversized text.
Mr_eX
User avatar
Geekbox VIP
 
Posts: 15654
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009 @ 3:01pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby Ender » Apr 27th, 2009 @ 5:58pm

Don't forget the fact that you now get to slash your tipping percentage by about half, and not feel guilty about it. :D
Ender
User avatar
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Mar 13th, 2009 @ 5:00pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby KindGalaxy » Apr 28th, 2009 @ 1:19am

mtcantor wrote:I am a sucker for biblically inspired alternate history sci fi.


That's a hell of a niche market haha
Never start a beef with a butcher
KindGalaxy
User avatar
 
Posts: 3753
Joined: Mar 7th, 2009 @ 11:01pm
Location: Australia

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby deadairis » Apr 28th, 2009 @ 10:12am

obonicus wrote:On Bioshock: it's nowhere near what Watchmen was to comics. Maybe what Memento was to film, but even that's stretching it.


All three items use their medium as an integral portion of their storytelling environment, requiring both traditional interaction with the medium's contents and demanding a participative interaction with the medium itself.

Bioshock the book or film would both have the potential to be interesting, but would fall limply without the spine of that participation with the medium itself.
deadairis
The Reimpaler
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Mar 13th, 2009 @ 9:56pm

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby KevlarKoala » Apr 28th, 2009 @ 12:52pm

deadairis wrote:
obonicus wrote:On Bioshock: it's nowhere near what Watchmen was to comics. Maybe what Memento was to film, but even that's stretching it.


All three items use their medium as an integral portion of their storytelling environment, requiring both traditional interaction with the medium's contents and demanding a participative interaction with the medium itself.

Bioshock the book or film would both have the potential to be interesting, but would fall limply without the spine of that participation with the medium itself.


Plus, Watchmen and Memento both tried new and innovative approaches to their mediums. And while Bioshock was very good, I don't recall anything it doing anything that I've never seen before. I think it would be better to call it The Matrix of video games (although I definitely hope their sequels are nothing alike!)
I've made compromises. Sorry Rorschach.
KevlarKoala
User avatar
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Apr 27th, 2009 @ 1:22pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: The Geekbox: Episode 13

Postby Dr Mrs The Monarch » Apr 28th, 2009 @ 2:14pm

all I got to say is zombie space pirates or if you rather space pirate zombies.
Dr Mrs The Monarch
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Mar 10th, 2009 @ 9:44am

Next
Forum Statistics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Google [Bot] and 16 guests

Options

Return to Site and Podcast Discussion

cron