[darfox8]

Yeah, DS9 doesn't have shit seasons outside of Season 1. Season 3 is already baller in my opinion. Problem with skipping a whole season is that every seasons have certain type of episodes that return and part of the enjoyment is they build upon the old ones. Like a Quark family episode, an O' Brien must suffer episode, and to a lesser extent the mirror universe episodes(because those were never great). While these episode may be OK on their own they get better with the recurring characters and jokes. When LiQuidator Brunt shows up your suppose to be like "Awwwwww shit it's my dawg Brunt, hows he gonna try con Quark this time." but you'll be like "Oh I guess your some guy who LiQuidates."

[Mr_eX]

Also I am going to plug Farscape cause I am half way through the third season (of four) and that show another really good sci-fi and it's willingness to do weird ass episodes like Scratch n Sniff which I would describe as Farscape meets Springbreakers is a constant delight. That combined with the visitor really has me wanting someone to bring back the Twilight Zone cause all there is at the moment is a few episodes of Charlie Booker's brilliant black mirror to scratch my sci-fi anthology itch. Also watch the Twilight Zone.

Farscape is pretty great

[seamus2389]

Yeah, DS9 doesn't have shit seasons outside of Season 1. Season 3 is already baller in my opinion. Problem with skipping a whole season is that every seasons have certain type of episodes that return and part of the enjoyment is they build upon the old ones. Like a Quark family episode, an O' Brien must suffer episode, and to a lesser extent the mirror universe episodes(because those were never great). While these episode may be OK on their own they get better with the recurring characters and jokes. When LiQuidator Brunt shows up your suppose to be like "Awwwwww shit it's my dawg Brunt, hows he gonna try con Quark this time." but you'll be like "Oh I guess your some guy who LiQuidates."

On one hand Abigail Nussbaum (who is the person whose taste most aligns with my own across movies, tv and sci-fi/fantasy) shits over season 3 (and 5) bar a few episodes while the av club DS9 rewatcher is more positive so I'll give the av club reviewer the benefit of the doubt and check out some of the episodes he is a fan of.

While watching ABC Family's the Fosters I realised one thing both it and DS9 has gotten better at as the shows go on is the moment between characters which doesn't really advance the plot but make the characters/their relationships and the world feel like more of actual place. A good example would be in the way of the warrior before the fight breaks out there a a couple of scenes between the characters like Odo and Quark/Bashir or Garat and Durkat which were very well done. Also both shows have gotten better as humour. I really like the Sisko and son stuff - it would be very easy for them to make Jake a typical asshole teen to generate story but so far I haven't seen it.

Finally I think I may be falling in love with Sisko. I would watch him smile and crackwise all day long.

[darfox8]

Fuck yeah, Sisko is da man! His speaking pattern and mannerisms are really weird at first but I fell in love with them. He's a super cool guy that you'd love to meet in real life, but at the same time he's capable of the most badassness of any Star Trek captain I have seen. He kills with his looks.

Civil Defense from Season 3 is great. One of my favorite light hearted Trek episodes not dealing with Tribbles.

[kenzo]

I still don't know how Seamus can have watched as much of season 1 as he did (all of it?) but is skipping season 3 content. Watch all of it, asshole. What are you in such a big rush for? You're young. You've got the rest of your life ahead of you. Where's the fire??? Relax and enjoy DS9 while you can. Because some day, you're gonna finish it and it's going to be done forever and you're going to be left with a giant hole in your heart because there's no more Star Trek left for you to consume.

[seamus2389]

I still don't know how Seamus can have watched as much of season 1 as he did (all of it?) but is skipping season 3 content. Watch all of it, asshole. What are you in such a big rush for? You're young. You've got the rest of your life ahead of you. Where's the fire??? Relax and enjoy DS9 while you can. Because some day, you're gonna finish it and it's going to be done forever and you're going to be left with a giant hole in your heart because there's no more Star Trek left for you to consume.

I watched about 8 episodes of season 1 and roughly the same of season 2. And my problem isn't lack of things to consume as an overabundance which is why I skip the not so great stuff cause watching it would mean less time for great stuff. And it won't be gone cause Sisko will live on in my heart till the day I die.

I have heard Civil defence is meant to be a very enjoyable episode and is one of the ones I will watch

[kenzo]

I watched about 8 episodes of season 1 and roughly the same of season 2.

You are officially dead to me. Go commit seppuku.

[seamus2389]

Watching the episode about the Odo Kira Shakar love triangle and I am going between ah poor odo and wanting to tell him to cope the fuck on and say something you shape shifting emotional fortress - I am a sucker for this shit no matter how many time I see it. This and the Odo/Quark edging round friendhsip stories I love when they are done well/with characters I like. Also loved the Odo-Worf talk about it being very important to make people who drop by to your quarters very unwelcome. Kira reminds me of Lena Dunham, Dax reminds me of the actress who plays Charlie in Girls.

What does Odo eat/ how does he get energy?

The Quark back in time and Secret agent Bashir episodes were really entertaining.

[darfox8]

Glad your enjoying DS9 and it's characters. That is the honest leg up it has on every other Star Trek, fun characters put in fun situations. I thought "Our Man Bashir" was alright(I love the part when Garrek is like "This is how spies live?") but I really like the occasional references to it in the future.

"Little Green Men" is hilarious because Quark sees it as an opportunity to take over Earth. I'm like, dats so Quark.

Dunno know how much you've seen of O'Brien and Bashir but their friend ship is really fun and feels genuine. Also, how do you feel about O'Brien? Is he the best Irishman in space, or what?

[seamus2389]

Glad your enjoying DS9 and it's characters. That is the honest leg up it has on every other Star Trek, fun characters put in fun situations. I thought "Our Man Bashir" was alright(I love the part when Garrek is like "This is how spies live?") but I really like the occasional references to it in the future.

"Little Green Men" is hilarious because Quark sees it as an opportunity to take over Earth. I'm like, dats so Quark.

Dunno know how much you've seen of O'Brien and Bashir but their friend ship is really fun and feels genuine. Also, how do you feel about O'Brien? Is he the best Irishman in space, or what?

I really liked in the episode about the bar staff union O'Brien and Bashir seeing who would/would not enter and speaking of him as the best Irish man in space I laughed when him and Julian were going to "play" the battle of Clontarf. Since I don't know of any other Irish man in space (on tv at least, I can think of one or two in books) O'Brien wins by default.

Just saw the episode with him in fake prison for 20 years that was good but reminded me that of the limits of this show is that it has to deal with that kind of thing in 45 minutes (and most likely never mention it again) versus one of my favourite shows of last year -Recify which is all about a guy being released from prison after 20 years. It's part of being a show from the 90's when serialisation was just starting and shows the problem with an episode of tv that works really well on it's own until you realise it's effects should last longer than an episode.

Rapping Jake Sisko has started posting again in every episode of the av club deep space nine reviews with recap raps.

[darfox8]

I finished Voyager. Some of it was alright but I feel like it wasn't great and I had a hard time marathoning it. I know that there's some guys who like Voyager and I respect them, there's probably a lot to like here if you haven't watched TNG or DS9 before hand. But since I did watch those here is my screed.

Star Trek Voyager: A Boring Journey to a Shitty Destination.

Why darfox8 thinks Voyager wasn't a great standalone and how it missed an opportunity to break new ground.

If your brainstorming some new Trek series that are similar but different to TNG it's probably not hard to come up with the baseline premise of DS9 and Voyager. One is a stationary version of Trek, where the setting is a hotspot of space politics and action, and one is an isolated version of Trek, where the crew are still in a space ship but they're lost in space. One also managed to out grow it's meager and shaky beginning to become one of the best Sci Fi TV shows ever, with a memorable likeable cast, a dense setting and backstory, and story arcs that were ground breaking for the franchise. While the other show starts off somewhat promising but immediately plateaus right out the gate and then struggles for six season to identify the main players and the tone of the series. Star Trek Voyager is wasted time.

I was never comfortable with VOY's setting and I don't think the show creator were either. By setting I mean everything, the plot line the characters, and the premise. They go through love interest like they don't give a fuck. It's like they wrote all the characters name on two roulette wheels and as they spin two names swing by each other, they check how Ralph Wiggins reacts, and then momentarily decide which they should pursue. B'elanna was into Chakotay and then not. Chakotay was into Cap Janeway and then not. Harry was into Seven and the not, some stupid redshirt twins and the not, some other shit and then not. The Doc was into Seven and then not. Nelix had Kes and then got dumped off screen(one of the lulzest things about this show). Kes was into Tom and then not. Tom is the exception, he was a "player" who finally settled down and I enjoyed most of that. This almost applies to Q as well but he's suppose to be flip floppy. I never felt that any one couple was a good fit. When Seven ends up with Chakotay in the end it didn't seem like these two character's "romantic destiny" being fulfilled; it felt like just another one of Chakotay's pairings on the roulette wheel, this is just the final one that queued up before the series faded to black unceremoniously.

This show was a cesspool of guest stars and lack of awesome classic players like Jeffery Combs. They had Andy Dick, The Rock, Georg Costanza, Sarah Silverman, and probably a bunch more I blocked out. Broccoli and Deanna Troi were some of the most exciting fun things about this show. When the z-tier characters are the coolest thing going on you know something is wrong. Fucking Luxana Troi might of been bearable in this show because she would of contrasted the muck that was everything else, and the audience would of felt some relief that she was somehow hurled across the galaxy away from the important stuff on DS9. All of this instead of Jeffery Combs appearing constantly as different constipated aliens. He appeared once as far as I know. Should of brought him back every season. This wishy washy bullshit applies to the main cast as well. They have Kes as the pretty(?) moe girl that nerds want to bone but they eventually eject her for a sexy(?) Seven of Nine whom has no shame and the nerds want to bone. I fucking forgot Kes existed until she returned in one of the single stupidest Star Trek episodes ever. No heart strings to be pulled but they act like I'd be happy they wasted an episode on her. And she was wasted in that episode, Kes fans would be PISSED. All you Kes fans out there... The best way to describe the casting and gimmicks this show employs is "aimless and desperate". I was never happy to see anyone show up or sad to see anyone go. Compare that shit to DS9 where my teets would lactate at just the sight of Quark or O'Brien.

Aimless and Desperate also describes the rogues gallery of VOY. They introduce boring uninteresting rehashed alien species, they go on to flounder any potential the species had to be interesting or fun, and then they're never to be mention again. There's like three fake Klingons in this show. Warrior Species whom suck ass. The Borg are OK I guess but they're not original. I remember watching DS9 and telling myself, "This is great and all, but I miss the Borg." be careful of what you wish for. The B's were never as scary or cool as in TNG. There were Borg episodes were I was bored, which is a travesty. Species 12345 was kinda neat, something completely alien. But they're quickly shoved aside and forgotten. Again, compare this shit to DS9 or TNG. Some classic ass Aliens in those.

Things I liked? The Doctor. The Doctor is the most tragic casualty of VOY. He deserved a great series to carry him but instead he had to hold up the whole seven season. He was the only constantly good thing. He was the only constant thing with consistent growths and arcs. He was good TV. He was fun and interesting and he made any episode he was featured in prominently better. His interaction with the crew might of fooled you to think that the cast was rich and layered but it was actually The Doctor's awesomeness radiating out onto others. To a lesser extent Tuvok was OK. Chakotay was OK. I enjoyed Neelix's interactions with Tuvock. At least the show runners had enough sense to put these two opposites together. Janeway is a pretty good Captain but she honestly ranks low for me. Maybe she too deserved a better show where her talents could of shined more.

There has to be an easier way! How could all this work right? Beside just saying "Be Better" or "Better Writing". I think the show could of been something special if it embraced the idea it flirted with once or twice. Voyager being a generational ship. They take so long to get home that the crew procreates and the younglings grow through the ranks and eventually replace the cast. Every Season or two the show does a 40-50 year time skip. As the audience you wonder who these new guys are for the first few episodes of the show. Both their character and their origin, their parents. The writers can be coy and not reveal a certain characters origin until way late so that the shippers are like freaking out wanting to know who Chakotay shacked up with. This of course means that The Doctor is the only recurring character throughout the whole series. He's a hologram who lives forever. Tuvok being a long living Vulcan could stick around for the first time skip, maybe two. Late in the series there could be an episode where there's a rumor of a haunted section of the ship. The kids are all freaking out saying "The ghost of Captain Janeway is still here and she's bitter that she can't be Captain anymore!" so the adults finally investigate and a fucking Janeway ghost appears and your like holy shit! But then she say, "Don't worry my child, I'm no ghost. 100 years ago when we fought Species 12345 one of them smacked me with their fluidic arm and a piece of my conscious got trapped on this bulkhead. Now that you scanned it with a Tricorder I can finally dissipate but before I go I want to tell you how proud I am of you all." The audience would be like, "Hooooly Fuuuuuuck. The feels and the legacy! They got Kate Mulgrew back for that thing awesome!" They could also show how alien species evolve over time. At first the shitty Kayson(SP?) are shitty but three season and a century and a half later they could be more enlightened and more willing to ally. Sure, hindsight is always 20/20. Who knows how this would of turned out if they actually did this but I feel anything would of been better than what we got.

There's such a thing as "StarTrekiness". StarTrekiness is a cool thing an episode might do. It can be profound or super smart but it can just be a nice thematic tie up of the plot. It can be poetic justice at the end of the episode. It can be just neat Scifi stuff. StarTrekiness is what makes Star Trek good and better than Star Wars. At the end of "Chain of Command" when Picard couldn't tell if he saw four or five light. At the end of "In the Pale Moonlight" when Sisko repeats "I can live with it" three time. When Picard started to communicate with the Alien Captain in "Darmok". "The Best of Both Worlds". "Far Beyond the Stars". These are StarTrekiness. VOYAGER HAS NONE OF THIS SHIT! It's all dull, lifeless, meandering, standalone plot lines. Never a takeaway from any episode. DS9 managed to bring along the StarTrekiness to it's multiple episode arc. Voyager sits comfortably in the standalone episode formula, uninterested in innovating which would of been fine, but it somehow forgot to bring the StarTrekiness to the party. This is the most damning thing anyone can say about Voyager. It invites direct comparison to TNG and it fails in the most basic Trek criteria. DS9 does all it can to grow out of it's shell but manages to honor the franchise through sheer quality and StarTrekiness. I wonder what Voyager would of been like with StarTrekiness.
~Fin

Well that's it, I think. I wrote this very sleepy so forgive any dumb writing. Even more than usual.

[kenzo]

So, I'm going to take some time later to thoroughly read through, debunk, and rip your post to shreds Darfox. But let it be known and made abundantly clear:

I warned you Dar. I fuckin' warned you about Voyager. I told you what to expect and to not get your expectations up and to enjoy it for what it was, and apparently you couldn't do that.

[dakazu]

LOL dar. So vicious!!!

I also like the doctor but I liked the show in general. Won't fault your opinions.


I'll say this though. I DID finished Voyager and gave up on DS9 mid 1st season

[Mr_eX]

I made it like 3 episodes into Voyager and gave up

[kenzo]

I made it like 3 episodes into Voyager and gave up

Nobody cares about how you hate Star Trek.

[Mr_eX]

But I don't hate Star Trek

[darfox8]

I look forwards to the bunks, but when you warned me of the episodic formula you didn't also warn me of the inherent lower quality of everything. Infact I got kinda hyped to see Janeway in action.

[kenzo]

I look forwards to the bunks, but when you warned me of the episodic formula you didn't also warn me of the inherent lower quality of everything. Infact I got kinda hyped to see Janeway in action.

YES, YES I DID. PROFUSELY SO. I WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS.

[LiQuid]

Darfox, watch Babylon 5.

[darfox8]

Enterprise is my next stop in old TV shows but I might do Babies after that.

[darfox8]

Kenzo and konanda cornered me on mumble last night and berated me for like an hour about Voyager. I kept my cool and nodded along, didn't want to provoke them into stabbing me.

In all seriousness I do like a lot more things in Voyager beside that one paragraph mentions(such as Seven of Nine). I was super tired while writing it and I wasn't as thorough as I wanted to be. Believe it or not I wasn't as thorough in the other paragraphs either. I didn't go into any detail just my surface feelings.

At the end of the day I was simply not moved by the plight of the Voyager crew.

[kenzo]

Kenzo and konanda cornered me on mumble last night and berated me for like an hour about Voyager. I kept my cool and nodded along, didn't want to provoke them into stabbing me.

You are a spineless cretin.


Darfox is bad at Star Trek!

[darfox8]

WWWRRRRRRRYYYYYYYY!!!!!

Soarry I'm Divergent. I will never live this Voyager hate down. I wish they would of just made good Trek show so this wouldn't be an issue.

[dakazu]

Lol mean while I will never finish DS9

[LiQuid]

Watch Babylon 5 instead.

[Mr_eX]

Lol mean while I will never finish DS9

Your loss

[darfox8]

WTF. Does this mean mean that they are doing DS9 HD?

https://twitter.com/CBSHE/status/469501793958100992

[kenzo]

WTF. Does this mean mean that they are doing DS9 HD?

https://twitter.com/CBSHE/status/469501793958100992

Maybe. More than likely, it's test footage/an episode that's more proof-of-concept than anything, and to also gauge if there's public interest. DS9 might be critically acclaimed, but it was never the international sensation that TNG was, so it can't simply ride a wave of nostalgia to the bank in the same way.

[kenzo]

"All Good Things..." Aired 20 years ago today (or was it yesterday?)... fuck... FUCKKKKK... I remember that day vividly. We're fucking old, guys.

[seamus2389]

I am nearing the end of DS9 season 6 and this season is a big step up from 5. I really liked the Sisko as 50 sci-fi writer episode as the writers pointing out how the golden age of sci-fi was more shit than gold. In the Pale Moonlight actually works really well in this show cause it makes perfect sense it will never be mentioned by either Sisko or Garrat again.

Watching this and Babylon 5 side by side it's well written episodes like this that shows up B5 for acting and writing which really suck major balls compared to DS9. I still like B5 but I am going to stop after the 4th season since it's the season all the big storylines get wrapped up. B5 does do a very interesting thing of spreading out the end of the major story arcs throughout the 4th season rather than shove them all into the last episode which gives it more to to finish each arc properly.